Declined Suggestion: Removing Player Model Alteration Perks

[Philip]

So a relatively recent issue I have been noticing far more commonly on the servers is an instance where people will modify their their player models through the plugins available. For example, there is a perk called "Extend your torso" which stretches your player model to become comically tall and disproportionate. Despite how seemingly humorous and harmless such perks are, they actually play a negative impact on the game. Whilst they may change your player model (in this case to become taller), the hit-box size does not change.

So why is this a problem?
Of course, it is common knowledge for most players that the hit-box is the defining factor in determining any registered action towards any other player, especially in terms of damage. The hit-boxes were designed to align with the player model, so hits will be registered correctly among all players. However, when the perceived player model is changed, players will be unable to distinguish between what they can and cannot hit.

For perks such as "extend your torso", perception of the head and chest hit-boxes are adversely affected.
- Classes who have the ability to headshot, such as Sniper and Spy will have trouble in effectively aiming, and are often forced to guess where the supposed "head" is
- Classes that use single shot non-splash projectiles (Flare Guns, Crossbows, Ranger Bolts, Balls, SMG's, Shotguns) will be more likely to miss with such weapons, as the torso will be confusing to aim at.
- Players on either team will have trouble seeing behind the person using the perk.

Perks that may change other aspects of the player model to a less extreme degree also have a negative effect on gameplay, as they also obscure the hit-box.

In addition to the modification of the player model itself, the modification of weapon size may also prove to obscure the hit-box. Bulky weapons such as the minigun and flamethrower when resized to be much larger, will hide certain parts of the hit-box entirely (flamethrower nozzle + tank, minigun barrel) and may prove to be a distraction to other players.

There are those that might say that might say that this thread is only applicable in servers established around a more vanilla PVP experience (2Fort, Turbine, Hightower). To which, I say that is completely valid. Gamemodes that do not revolve completely around individual vanilla skill (Jailbreak, Deathrun, Multiplied Stats, Dodgeball) aren't affected much or at all by the perks mentioned. Thus, it would be good to establish a perk usage divide among the different types of servers available.

To conclude, I propose that other perks should be established in lieu of the ones mentioned. I do not have any ideas to present at the moment of writing this, but it would be appreciated if you guys would present your own thoughts in the comments.

tl;dr Perks that misrepresent/obscure player hitboxes should be removed from servers affected by it

 

[RainbowRobb]

Of course it's popular, it provides a mechanical advantage to those who use it. If you had a perk that gave every shot that hit you a 5% chance to do no damage then it would be popular too, but that wouldn't mean it made the game more fun. It just makes people with the perk frustrating to shoot at.

These are all valid points if you were talking about a competitive server.

 

[Girl]

The server doesn't have to be competitive for it to be a detriment to the gameplay. It's only a popular perk because it gives the user an advantage, not because it adds anything to the experience. RTD is fair and the perks/disadvantages are distributed randomly and for short amounts of time. Altered player models are only for people who have enough credits and who go through the store to get them, and last much longer. People don't like them because they're fun, they like them because they get an advantage over people who aren't using them. They're actively unfun to play with. What's fun about missing a shot on a distended model? Who was having fun in that interaction?

FWIW, the only people I ever see using these models are the ones treating the server like it's competitive. I've never seen anyone equip these models and try to "Have fun" or "Be Silly." They put the model on and sweat it up.

 

[RainbowRobb]

The server doesn't have to be competitive for it to be a detriment to the gameplay. It's only a popular perk because it gives the user an advantage, not because it adds anything to the experience. RTD is fair and the perks/disadvantages are distributed randomly and for short amounts of time. Altered player models are only for people who have enough credits and who go through the store to get them, and last much longer. People don't like them because they're fun, they like them because they get an advantage over people who aren't using them. They're actively unfun to play with. What's fun about missing a shot on a distended model? Who was having fun in that interaction?

FWIW, the only people I ever see using these models are the ones treating the server like it's competitive. I've never seen anyone equip these models and try to "Have fun" or "Be Silly." They put the model on and sweat it up.

On any given 2Fort or HT community server, you will find about 20 people who aren't paying attention to the objective 3-4 who are working on the objective and the 1-4 who are just going to kills. And half of those taking it seriously are just random players looking for 2fort servers.

I get that a dozen people have expressed their salt, on this poll.

But to address a specific point you presented, they have to use credits. EXACTLY the point. They keep coming back, earning credits and buying these session perks. As for who uses those perks, I've accumulated a few hours on blw servers, and plenty of people use them. Maybe you have a particular person who you play against who annoys you with them, but that's not everyone.

People don't like them because they're fun, they like them because they get an advantage over people who aren't using them. They're actively unfun to play with. What's fun about missing a shot on a distended model? Who was having fun in that interaction?

..... According to your next quote here, no one is having fun.

I've never seen anyone equip these models and try to "Have fun" or "Be Silly." They put the model on and sweat it up.

So it's just that you don't like how they are having fun. Did you ever play with friends as a kid, and there would be a friend who wanted to play a game a specific way, and would whine if they didn't get their way?

 

[Philip]

I'm just gonna make a pretty brief statement here.

So it's just that you don't like how they are having fun. Did you ever play with friends as a kid, and there would be a friend who wanted to play a game a specific way, and would whine if they didn't get their way?

It's not the fact that he doesn't like seeing people have fun. It's the fact that these commands will make the game less enjoyable for those playing against those command users. Getting a free damage pass may be "fun" for one person but may prove to be irritating to the other. In my experience, there are only a diluted few who actually use the command for laughs. To sort of add on/summarize my points in the main thread, the people who join (for example) 2Fort are expecting a casual 2Fort experience, where the base consistencies of regular TF2 still applies. Everything revolves around killing enemy players. The command isn't a problem when killing isn't a primary objective of the gamemode... like friendly servers. But for the majority of TF2, there is always a sense of human competition even when playing casually.

Additionally, with the resizing of body parts, it creates a "Darwin's Danger Shield" scenario. Players who use the command will almost always have an advantage over those who are not using it. Thus in order to compete, they have to overcome this gap by either pushing strategies solely on countering or using the command themselves to give an equal playing field.

 

[RainbowRobb]

I'm just gonna make a pretty brief statement here.


It's not the fact that he doesn't like seeing people have fun.

I said HOW they are having fun. And the point of me stating that was that he said no one had fun, then said people had fun. Just not the way he wants to have fun. He wants everyone to have fun the way HE wants to have fun. #purist #gatekeeping

 

[Benedevil]

I'd like to ask for an alternative solution to this. I will not remove these perks. I did already with the resizetorso, but at this point almost any donator perk could be dysected this way and I'd end up with people having no reason to donate. I believe our perks are still very tame if compared to other communities. In addition we provide mostly fun casual modes.

 

[Girl]

On any given 2Fort or HT community server, you will find about 20 people who aren't paying attention to the objective 3-4 who are working on the objective and the 1-4 who are just going to kills. And half of those taking it seriously are just random players looking for 2fort servers.

Yes, I understand that there are a lot of people who are not taking the game seriously and that's fine. It doesn't change the fact that resizing the character models, especially the torso, negatively affects the game for everyone but the user of those perks. Titles, trails, particle effects, unique weapons for users (Golden Pans), free hats (Like Notch's minecraft hat), those are all great perks that are fun for everyone. Playing with or against them isn't frustrating.

I get that a dozen people have expressed their salt, on this poll.

I have never heard a single player talk positively about these models in any of my sessions on the Blackwonder server and have only ever heard people express frustration over trying to figure out where the actual model is. I would be interested in seeing what results you would get if you actively poled players on servers about them or had discussions with them. Those defending the alterations are offering arguments of "Well, it's not that bad!" or "Just guess where the head is, like when you're shooting a taunting player!" You're just adding frustration to the equation. I would wager that you're not adding more fun than you're subtracting.

But to address a specific point you presented, they have to use credits. EXACTLY the point. They keep coming back, earning credits and buying these session perks. As for who uses those perks, I've accumulated a few hours on blw servers, and plenty of people use them. Maybe you have a particular person who you play against who annoys you with them, but that's not everyone.

Hats, weapon unlocks, particle effects, rare weapons(Golden Pan, Saxxy), titles, killstreaks, end of round invincibility, autobalance immunity, etc., are all great unlocks for people to play for that don't provide a mechanical advantage for the user and don't make the game worse for anyone else. It even introduces fun for players who manage to kill someone using a rare weapon by allowing them a chance to pick it up off the ground and use it for a short time! They're purely positive additions to the game.

According to your next quote here, no one is having fun.

So it's just that you don't like how they are having fun. Did you ever play with friends as a kid, and there would be a friend who wanted to play a game a specific way, and would whine if they didn't get their way?

The person having fun is having fun at the detriment of others, and yes, I do take issue with that. It's like the kid in your analogy demanding to use Oddjob in Goldeneye. It's only fun because they get an advantage over other players.

I have no problem with people playing sweaty and taking the game seriously. I've got no problem with people playing melee only, or fat scout heavy. I don't have any problem with someone sitting in spawn, building uber as medic, and only coming out of spawn to uber someone on their battlements. Everyone has their own way of playing and enjoying TF2. The problem is that this particular perk does not add anything positive to any of these interactions, it doesn't open up any new way of playing, it is simply a "Pay 1500 credits to make it harder to shoot you" perk. It is only different from donor perks that give extra damage, free crits, invincibility in that the effect is not as in your face.

Truthfully, the resize torso is the worst offender of them. Giant hands or giant feet would be totally harmless and big heads are...not great, but they're not nearly as deceitful as the torso resizing.

 

[RainbowRobb]

Yes, I understand that there are a lot of people who are not taking the game seriously and that's fine. It doesn't change the fact that resizing the character models, especially the torso, negatively affects the game for everyone but the user of those perks. Titles, trails, particle effects, unique weapons for users (Golden Pans), free hats (Like Notch's minecraft hat), those are all great perks that are fun for everyone. Playing with or against them isn't frustrating.



I have never heard a single player talk positively about these models in any of my sessions on the Blackwonder server and have only ever heard people express frustration over trying to figure out where the actual model is. I would be interested in seeing what results you would get if you actively poled players on servers about them or had discussions with them. Those defending the alterations are offering arguments of "Well, it's not that bad!" or "Just guess where the head is, like when you're shooting a taunting player!" You're just adding frustration to the equation. I would wager that you're not adding more fun than you're subtracting.



Hats, weapon unlocks, particle effects, rare weapons(Golden Pan, Saxxy), titles, killstreaks, end of round invincibility, autobalance immunity, etc., are all great unlocks for people to play for that don't provide a mechanical advantage for the user and don't make the game worse for anyone else. It even introduces fun for players who manage to kill someone using a rare weapon by allowing them a chance to pick it up off the ground and use it for a short time! They're purely positive additions to the game.



The person having fun is having fun at the detriment of others, and yes, I do take issue with that. It's like the kid in your analogy demanding to use Oddjob in Goldeneye. It's only fun because they get an advantage over other players.

I have no problem with people playing sweaty and taking the game seriously. I've got no problem with people playing melee only, or fat scout heavy. I don't have any problem with someone sitting in spawn, building uber as medic, and only coming out of spawn to uber someone on their battlements. Everyone has their own way of playing and enjoying TF2. The problem is that this particular perk does not add anything positive to any of these interactions, it doesn't open up any new way of playing, it is simply a "Pay 1500 credits to make it harder to shoot you" perk. It is only different from donor perks that give extra damage, free crits, invincibility in that the effect is not as in your face.

Truthfully, the resize torso is the worst offender of them. Giant hands or giant feet would be totally harmless and big heads are...not great, but they're not nearly as deceitful as the torso resizing.

See the owner's response

 

[Girl]

See the owner's response

Reread my post. I already offered alternatives: Truthfully, the resize torso is the worst offender of them. Giant hands or giant feet would be totally harmless and big heads are...not great, but they're not nearly as deceitful as the torso resizing.

Resizing Torso and Resizing Head shouldn't be perks that you offer to your community. They are not fun perks, they're essentially pay for advantage perks. There are so many other good donater/regular perks that you could be using for your server. Hat unlocks, weapon unlocks, particle effects, rare weapons(Golden Pan, Saxxy), titles, killstreaks, end of round invincibility, autobalance immunity, credit boosts, credit presents, etc. Resizing player models is not a good perk as outlined in my post above.

 

[RainbowRobb]

Reread my post. I already offered alternatives: Truthfully, the resize torso is the worst offender of them. Giant hands or giant feet would be totally harmless and big heads are...not great, but they're not nearly as deceitful as the torso resizing.

Resizing Torso and Resizing Head shouldn't be perks that you offer to your community. They are not fun perks, they're essentially pay for advantage perks. There are so many other good donater/regular perks that you could be using for your server. Hat unlocks, weapon unlocks, particle effects, rare weapons(Golden Pan, Saxxy), titles, killstreaks, end of round invincibility, autobalance immunity, credit boosts, credit presents, etc. Resizing player models is not a good perk as outlined in my post above.

Communities that offer half of the items/effects you are suggesting, they are breaking the TOS.

 

[Girl]

Communities that offer half of the items/effects you are suggesting, they are breaking the TOS.

I'm not familiar with the TOS for running community servers, but I have regularly visited servers offering these benefits on and off for years. What part of the TOS are they violating?

And, even assuming that these things do violate the TOS and model resizing doesn't, it does not invalidate any of the points I'm making about it being a detriment to the game. Why would you need a substitute to replace a bad perk in order to get rid of said bad perk?

 

[RainbowRobb]

And, even assuming that these things do violate the TOS and model resizing doesn't, it does not invalidate any of the points I'm making about it being a detriment to the game. Why would you need a substitute to replace a bad perk in order to get rid of said bad perk?

See here, this is the owner's decision on the matter of model alteration. They will not be removed, he left this open to see if new ideas might be presented.

I'd like to ask for an alternative solution to this. I will not remove these perks. I did already with the resizetorso, but at this point almost any donator perk could be dysected this way and I'd end up with people having no reason to donate. I believe our perks are still very tame if compared to other communities. In addition we provide mostly fun casual modes.

I'm not familiar with the TOS for running community servers, but I have regularly visited servers offering these benefits on and off for years. What part of the TOS are they violating?

Sure, other communities do things like providing otherwise-expensive items, unusual items and effects. But since we all enter into basic usage agreements when using steam, we do not own these items. We only have usage, like a permanent lease-agreement. When we "sell" items, we are transferring that lease to another person. When these communities make these perks available, it is like a car rental company manufacturing their own Ferrari, calling it a Ferrari, making it identical to a real Ferrari, but then giving it away with no revenue going to Ferrari. Ferrari would sue that company into dust. If Valve wanted to enforce their ownership of these items, they could shut down those other communities. This is different from manipulating models, because Valve does not stand to make money from character models, because they are free.

 

[Benedevil]

Since there was no alternative solution provided. I will be declining this thread. We will keep this in mind however for the future.