Completed Permanent mute/gag after 5 times

[Buster]

So I have been wondering if something like this would be possible and if it is, would you support it.

I often find myself muting the same people, and although I try to scale up the length of the mutes it's clear that they won't learn anything from the punishment and keep on spamming, annoying people when someone isn't there to stop them.

Sometimes when I read a ban appeal here and go to sourcebans I spot people who have been muted 7 times and gagged 4 times by other admins.

Would it be possible to automatically permamute/permagag someone after he had been muted/gagged for 5 times? With this new feature admins wouldn't just delay the rule breaking, but with time permanently solve the issue.

1 more thing: I've noticed a lot of admins forget to give reasons when they mute/gag people. In other words, get gud, give reasons.

 

[Buster]

but for a month

Automating this for a month long of mute is a waste of time and won't really solve problems :d As I stated above we're talking about people who have been warned and punished 5 times and still don't understand the rules which means they will not understand after a month either. Of if they do they can appeal and get 1 more chance.

Anyone who speaks English, young or not, understands the rules. They choose to break it, it doesn't just happen.

 

[DeadGaming666]

Okay, my times might have been long, so if I just settle with 4 being 1 day, and 5 being 1 week, that should be good (after my much indecisiveness : D)

 

[Bassianus]

This is what I think:
1. Warning
2. 30 min mute/gag
3. 1 hour mute/gag
4. 1 week mute/gag
5. 1 year mute/gag
6. Permanent mute/gag
7. Permanent mute/gag (with no hope of appeal

I'd put a 1 month mute / gag in between the week and year one, just me.

 

[DeadGaming666]

I've changed it, not in that post, put in the post above yours. Here is the changed one:
1. Warning
2. 30 min
3. 1 hour
4. 1 day
5. 1 week
6. Perma
7. Perma with no appeal
That's just me. People work differently

 

[Bassianus]

That's just me. People work differently

The glory of being human, we all work differently.

 

[DeadGaming666]

For the better or for the worse, we all work differently as humans. Here at least it can be for the better

 

[Noodl]

This is what I think:
1. Warning
2. 30 min mute/gag
3. 1 hour mute/gag
4. 1 week mute/gag
5. 1 year mute/gag
6. Permanent mute/gag
7. Permanent mute/gag (with no hope of appeal

I think you missed 1 month and 1 day. If it's one year, it may as well be permanent. Same thing really.

I'd go 30 -> hour -> 12h -> 2 day -> week -> 2 weeks -> perm.
With some repetition, so maybe 5 days after 2. As every situation is different, it's not really possible to set up a ladder and say "This is the incremental mute length" for obvious reasons, I don't need to re-iterate what's already been said.

 

[DeadGaming666]

I agree with you noodl. Each situation is bound to be different and requires different types of touches for each. Some heavy, some light. That was just my general thought if there were to be some sort of incremental mute length.

 

[MiyukiMouse]

But let the lenght given of gag/ban be manually done by admins. Don't have the system do it automatically because then it'll cause even more troubles. Just to be clear.

And if the admins can type clearly in the reason of ban/gag , then it should be clear on what they length they deserve.

 

[MiyukiMouse]

Okay, I've been talking about 2010Wolf about this subject.
How I see it best for the community to show they care about the wellbeing of the servers and it's players and take actions about missbehaving people:

1. Don't work with a plugin that has to count the amount of bans or gags given before, because then you should script that it should ignore console gags/bans. And it really doesn't seem too much effort to check the list of gags/bans from the rulebreaker.

2. Work with a consistent of length for the ban/gag you give to the rulebreaker. So basically, every admin just checks quickly the list and see how many times an admin (not console) has gagged/banned the person. And then give him the right penalty. So you know what to give and the rulebreaker knows when his final days are comming before the permanent action is done.
For example: 1st time; 1 day . 2nd time; 3 days . 3rd time; 1 week . 4th time: 1 month . 5th time permanent
And then maybe allow them to appeal in a year if they changed attitude or something.

Let me explain why I see this as a possible solution: I've had this person breaking rules on a VSH server on the community I used to be on, I reported him few times. He was up to his last chance because next time he was going to be permanently gagged. He suddenly changed, I was surprised. He started behaving and eventually we became friends. He learned from his misstakes after getting banned 4 times and knowing next time, it was going to be done for him. All because of that.

And I know Jailbreak is something that should be seen seperatly because of how toxic it can be, I used to moderate a JBserver, pure hell.

Just leaving my suggestion about the situation here.

xoxo


Edit: typo'd 2010wolf his name wrong and he was all crying with tears and all about it so i changed it.. happy now?

 

[2010wolf | Blw.tf]

So... after further thinking about this idea... and talking to some people about this idea... i really got confused over some parts of it, and found something to have a really big flaw or generally there is a flaw in them.

So... i'm going to tell you the what i "think good" and what i "think bad" about buster's idea...
here we go....

What i think is good:
So... the fact that there is a chance that players that were gaged/muted can make a gag/mute appeal, which is a chance to help them behave again.
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That the players know that they will be permanently gaged/muted after "X" times, so they will be careful of when they try to spam or sing or do other shit.
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What i think is bad:
The fact that you have to chain the admins and the players by a few certain amount of bans, and thus it will kill the creativity and opinion for each individual admin.

HOWEVER. after reading Miyuki's idea... i really think that if it was modified in a way that it doesn't have to be exactly 5 chances, and it doesn't have to be exactly the amount of time the gag/mute is, which she mentioned, but somewhat close to it or in between, her part of this idea might be well fit and much better instead of what's already suggested.
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Why is it such a pain in the arce to go to the sourcebans to check on someone of how many times he has misbehaved or broke the rules and got gaged/muted/banned for it?
i don't really see the problem, it's 4 simple easy steps:
1. go to the sourcebans,
2. search the ID. (copy & paste the ID)
3. look at how many times he was banned.
4. ban him for the amount of time you think is well-fit for how much time he was banned in total.
I have had this in mind before miyuki mentioned it, but i just didn't think it was a good idea to mention it, until now.

i honestly don't see how hard is it to do so, and i don't think we need a plug-in to do what we ALREADY CAN do, but some people are just lazy to do so. (no i'm not saying that buster or anyone that has voted for this idea to be applied is lazy)

Moreover, it would be better for us the admins to go our selves manually and actually look up the sourcebans and see what should we do, because it will give a very VERY great impression for this community, as it will make the players know that the admins are online, and are always trying to help, and every decision that is made is an admin's decision, someone that have put his heart and mind into thinking about what's right, not a plug-in (computer's decision... which let's be honest, it may fuck up any time really.)
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This... list? might be edited in the future, that's all i thought of so far, and for now i took away my vote, because there are things that are just unclear after i re-thought some facts and... things.

I really hope to hear out your opinions about what i just mentioned, as i really find it important, at least for me.

 

[MiyukiMouse]

Also to be added, if you have it automated, it will have fails and bugs. And people will be making an appeal, which you have to look into, which takes as much time as banning/gagging someone yourself.

The idea has good itentions, I just doubt it's going to work how you want it to be.

 

[Lane]

Sounds dumb but can you not just for a perm mute scale the minutes so high the mute will outlive them?

 

[Benedevil]

ALTERNATIVELY, what I deem the best solution, also far easier, is just as SB queries and displays a player's number of precious bans ("[SourceBans] Player Noodl has 3 previous bans on record"), to query their amount of comm blocks at the same time, so you'd know how many blocks they've had before, which would help your decision. This little extension is added in a couple of minutes.

I think Noodl's idea is pretty good. I think the main problem would be solved, being that admins have to check previous mutes/gags and base their punishment on that and lets face it, we are all a little bit lazy on that side.
Having set times would indeed cause many unjustified mutes/gags. I think an admin should have the decision on how long the punishment would be, since all offenses are different and deserve different attention.

So I'll look into adding that feature in this plugin. I think I won't count votemutes initiated by players, since people still tend to blindly press "Yes" even if it isn't the first option on the menu, but I'd like some different opinions on this.

I could also look into adding the necessity to give a reason as to why you want to initiate a votemute/votegag, so we can potentially count those as well.

 

[Buster]

Okay, although it's now not really possible that this request will come true, at least in a form that I imagined (Despite that at least 8 people agreed). I'll still debunk basically everything you've said, because most of it doesn't make sense on it's own and the rest isn't relevant to what I proposed.

Don't work with a plugin that has to count the amount of bans or gags given before, because then you should script that it should ignore console gags/bans. And it really doesn't seem too much effort to check the list of gags/bans from the rulebreaker.

1.: I've never ever talked about banning anyone, this post was about mute/gag from the get go. 2.: Yes Console mutes/gags wouldn't count, what's the problem with that? 3.: If it wasn't some what of an effort than everyone would do it already, I dare you to go on a jb server where 6 kids are talking at the same time and spend your time with typing status, copying their id right, alt tabbing and searching through their comms, in the meanwhile they are still on the server talking because you're busy thinking about how long of a mute you should give them. this is basically the same story as why we don't have a !calladmin or !report command.

2. Work with a consistent of length for the ban/gag you give to the rulebreaker

4.: Different kinds of rule breakers, different lengths punishments.

And then maybe allow them to appeal in a year if they changed attitude or something.

5.: Why would we exactly wait a year? Some comments ago the argument was that "people change in matter of months".

He suddenly changed, I was surprised.

6.: As stated earlier, in my idea everyone could apologies and appeal 1 more time to have 1 more chance even if he fucked up 5 times already.

What i think is good:

7.: Don't you think that getting rid of trolls is also a good thing?

The fact that you have to chain the admins and the players by a few certain amount of bans, and thus it will kill the creativity and opinion for each individual admin.

8.: What? Who are you chaining to who? Kill creativity?!?!?! Dude, why did you have to make it worse. x'D Yeah, still no bans by the way.

Why is it such a pain in the arce to go to the sourcebans to check on someone of how many times he has misbehaved

9.: Excuse me? You were the guy who said 40-200 seconds of your life is a lot and it's time wasting to give reasons when you mute/gag someone. How is this suddenly so okay for you?

we ALREADY CAN

10.: The point is to make life easier.

because it will give a very VERY great impression for this community,

11.: No regular player will notice the difference between you searching sourcebans or not. Thus it won't give any kind of impression.

Okay, so what probably will happen is that Ben tries to turn this whole idea into 1 command which will display that "xy player has 1 prev. bans and 3 prev gags on record" Or we could have 3 separate commands to check how many times a player was muted/gagged or even banned.
This means we will be able to check if a player has been already muted several times and judge him more strictly. This is the middle ground. The commands would actually help in judgment and there would be no plugin involved so some people can be happy. It's also less time consuming to make.

Thanks everyone for being active and giving your opinion about this idea of mine, even if we disagreed at least we came up with a solution that will hopefully be good enough for everybody.

 

[2010wolf | Blw.tf]

8.:still no bans by the way.

Ehm excuse me, i tend to say bans instead of mutes/gags :b my bad

9.: Excuse me? You were the guy who said 40-200 seconds of your life is a lot and it's time wasting to give reasons when you mute/gag someone. How is this suddenly so okay for you?

Yes, i have only said that "Giving a reason" is time wasting, since we are admins and we are trust worthy, and so we don't need to give a reason to obvious situation.

edit: (i forgot to add this part, you can also see it in our chat between me and noodl few comments ago) except on long bans, long bans or somewhat near long bans need a reason.

edit: i mean.. if you demand for me to add a reason in every single ban/mute/gag. i'm up for it, it's not a big deal.

But then noodl already convinced me that giving a reason is very essential to long bans.

However, i see that going to the sourcebans and searching for the player's ID is not going to be a problem, since in my eyes i see that it's an important task/process to do and take care of.

1.: I dare you to go on a jb server where 6 kids are talking at the same time and spend your time with typing status, copying their id right, alt tabbing and searching through their comms, in the meanwhile they are still on the server talking because you're busy thinking about how long of a mute you should give them. this is basically the same story as why we don't have a !calladmin or !report command.
.

As for me, i will simply ban them, each one of them "X" amount of time, it doesn't have to be something that thought of, and then actually look up how many times each of them was banned(look up their history of gags/mutes) and then re-ban them for the well fitting duration for their actions, simple as that.

Yes that will take a very long time, because you mentioned there are 6 kids... ofc it will take a long time with 6 kids.

however, if we say that it's only one kid, then i will do the same thing, ban him for "X" amount of time, then look up his history and then re-ban him from what i see fitting for his actions, which will take few mins.
(and by ban here i mean mute/gag... i'm too lazy to re-write all of the bans i typed here)

10.: The point is to make life easier.

i know that, i just don't see that it's THAT important to make, anyways, we will see about what happens in the future, hopefully it's great :3

11.: No regular player will notice the difference between you searching sourcebans or not. Thus it won't give any kind of impression.

okay, opinions... i understand and respect yours :3

 

[2010wolf | Blw.tf]

i added the neutral vote because... that's what i want to vote for now >_>

 

[Benedevil]

Yes, i have only said that "Giving a reason" is time wasting, since we are admins and we are trust worthy, and so we don't need to give a reason to obvious situation.

Excuse me?

 

[MiyukiMouse]

I give up, you keep "debunking" what I say but you don't bother reading clearly what I say. I get it that you don't like someone not agreeing to what you say, but I thought I had my right about giving an opinion.

In my eyes, breaking a rule, is breaking a rule. No matter "how bad". If they know the order of the gags/bans, they'll change their attitude quicker than having 20 chances or more. And someone missbehaving in chat, doesn't matter if you were on already or not, a minute will longer missbehaving will not matter. Maybe they been missbehaving for the past 15 minutes, 1 minute more wont make the community die.

And 2010Wolf, an admin should always give up a reason, you can't remember all the people you have banned/gagged so people might take advantage and lie if they want to appeal and no reason is given. Like "it was a joke" or "he meant to ban someone else but got the wrong person" or "i did nothing wrong".

 

[Noodl]

What might help is /sleuthcomms and /sleuthbans commands, which will open an motd window to SourceBans showing results for the client's ID. Alternatively a command which queries sleuth again for their comms like I said should appear when they join.
If we streamline a process and make life easier for little effort, why not.

This thread is also getting a little heated. Let's chill a tad.