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Closed List of Dodgeball Suggestions v2

Weegeee

Unremarkable
Joined
Mar 14, 2020
Messages
19
  • Instead of speeding up the rocket on delay, have a detonation timer
    • This would stop players who orbit slow rockets for 20 seconds and airblast, making the rocket instantly go from 180mph down to 50mph in a fraction of a second, which makes it hard to track.
  • Make the basketball rocket easy dodgeball only or remove it entirely
    • It's a weird gimmick that doesn't really serve any purpose other than to make the rocket harder to hit.
  • Turn off the orbit function on the bot
    • It's unnecessary, and it makes practicing things like speeding more difficult.
  • Reduce the bot's airblast cooldown
    • Some players will purposefully CQC the bot to force others to disable it because they find the bot boring. Reducing or removing the cooldown should make the bot unkillable.
(In regard to the previous 2 suggestions: The purpose of the bot should not be to mimic a real player, but to be used as a practice tool for sharpening a player's skills, which is why I feel that it's necessary that the bot gets these changes.)

  • Add clarification and expand upon / rework the current dodgeball rules
    • Most of the rules listed here are never enforced by staff (the only one that ever actually gets enforced in the US advanced server is the "blocking" rule). All of these rules are pretty ridiculous:
      • Suiciding when you are being targeted by the rocket does nothing harmful to the person who gets targeted next because the rocket deals no damage after you suicide.
      • Stealing is not really a problem, US adv players have had no problem with stealing being allowed. If anything, stealing is a double-edged sword, because you put yourself in a more vulnerable place by standing closer to other players (risking death from splash damage if your teammate dies), standing closer to the front (making you an easy switch target if the enemy player backshots), and you also risk getting directed with no warning because you are standing in front of another player and their rockets. If stealing is really a problem, then just keep the slay steal plugin on easy. Newer players will then have a safe space to actually learn the basics of dodgeball, and they can move to the advanced server when they feel ready to.
      • If the delay suggestion I made actually gets implemented, then delaying the rocket shouldn't even be a big deal anymore, this rule is useless anyway.
      • The blocking rule NEEDS specification. There are too many situations where this vague rule could be applied. By the looks of it, staff only enforce this rule when a player gets within CQC range and tries to instantly reflect the enemy player's rocket in their face, killing the enemy. So, maybe this rule should be changed to outlaw instant airblasts instead? There are many players who like to play close, and the vagueness of this rule makes it confusing if CQC is allowed or not. I think it would be pretty unfair if CQC was not allowed, because most dodgeball players CQC a ton and if it were actually enforced, then many players would probably be perma banned by now.
    • Here's a rule that I think SHOULD be added:
      • No purposeful team killing (ex. orbiting the rocket while also walking towards another teammate in an attempt to get them killed). This rule should be enforced when it is clear that there was intent in the perpetrator's actions, because there are many ways you can both purposefully and accidentally team kill someone.
  • No bounce?
    • Add a votebounce plugin and give the option to vote for either bounce or no bounce. No bounce adds some new challenges, such as less of a reliance on orbiting and more skilled CQC, that make it more fun than bounce (in my opinion).
  • Fix the rocket trail
    • The rocket's trail is too thick. Even with pyrovision, the trail stays for too long, making it hard to see the rocket when speeding or even just playing normally. (Supposedly this is because the trail stacks? Not sure, but it's an annoyance either way.)
  • Disable fall damage
    • Fall damage makes it impossible for players to rocket jump, please disable it.
 
Last edited:

TheCrappyCompletionist

Blackwonder's Own
Staff Member
Admin
Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Messages
3,262
Stealing is not really a problem, US adv players have had no problem with stealing being allowed. If anything, stealing is a double-edged sword, because you put yourself in a more vulnerable place by standing closer to other players (risking death from splash damage if your teammate dies), standing closer to the front (making you an easy switch target if the enemy player backshots), and you also risk getting directed with no warning because you are standing in front of another player and their rockets. If stealing is really a problem, then just keep the slay steal plugin on easy. Newer players will then have a safe space to actually learn the basics of dodgeball, and they can move to the advanced server when they feel ready to.
1655195840579.png

stealing is already permitted on US advanced.
From what I know, stealing is still a problem at least sometimes on the non-advanced servers.

No purposeful team killing (ex. orbiting the rocket while also walking towards another teammate in an attempt to get them killed). This rule should be enforced when it is clear that there was intent in the perpetrator's actions, because there are many ways you can both purposefully and accidentally team kill someone.
1655195941947.png

Technically this rule already exists in the general TF2 rules section. Not a DB moderator however, so I'll just wait and see what more experienced members say about these suggestions.

These are only my 2 cents.
 

Silorak

Monkas
Staff Member
Admin
Joined
Oct 8, 2017
Messages
77
Hello, I'll go through all these points as most active EU db badmin.
Instead of speeding up the rocket on delay, have a detonation timer
  • This would stop players who orbit slow rockets for 20 seconds and airblast, making the rocket instantly go from 180mph down to 50mph in a fraction of a second, which makes it hard to track.
The dodgeballs anti-delay function is quite ok. The only reason why people are able to abuse it, is because the speed gain CVAR uses default value "200" and wasn't changed at all. Maybe in few patches, the rockets anti-delay function will be used on next game frame. That way, the players no longer will have 0.1 second speed up/speed down and won't be able to take the advantage of it, to kill someone.

Make the basketball rocket easy dodgeball only or remove it entirely
  • It's a weird gimmick that doesn't really serve any purpose other than to make the rocket harder to hit.
The basketball rocket mechanic is highly used on EU and it creates some unique plays.
Now, I can imagine why it doesn't perform that way on US. It's because everyone steals there and it has no room to be used properly.


Turn off the orbit function on the bot
  • It's unnecessary, and it makes practicing things like speeding more difficult.
Orbit for a bot is great reminder that you can't expect players to give you straight rockets all the time and the best part about it, it ruins your timing.
To, the cfg for a bot that's being used, came from my server and it was designed to be the hardest bot ever and it does show the players, how todays dodgeball is played and trains them to accept the that will lose a lot.


Reduce the bot's airblast cooldown
  • Some players will purposefully CQC the bot to force others to disable it because they find the bot boring. Reducing or removing the cooldown should make the bot unkillable.
Sadly, I have no clue who maintains the bot anymore. Personally would expect such features like auto disable bot on X amount of players or bot having slay barrier like nanobot. So if you want these features, maybe find the github where it came from and request features, to I think the blw devs could improve it non the less and maybe even fix it's issue of him not working on any map that isn't roundish like octagon.

Suiciding when you are being targeted by the rocket does nothing harmful to the person who gets targeted next because the rocket deals no damage after you suicide.
Pog rules.
Yes, the suicide rule can be removed as the dodgeballs plugin got some updates, making the rocket do 0 dmg if the player suicides.


Stealing is not really a problem, US adv players have had no problem with stealing being allowed. If anything, stealing is a double-edged sword, because you put yourself in a more vulnerable place by standing closer to other players (risking death from splash damage if your teammate dies), standing closer to the front (making you an easy switch target if the enemy player backshots), and you also risk getting directed with no warning because you are standing in front of another player and their rockets. If stealing is really a problem, then just keep the slay steal plugin on easy. Newer players will then have a safe space to actually learn the basics of dodgeball, and they can move to the advanced server when they feel ready to.
The stealing rule is enforced on all EU's dodgeball servers, so it might look like it's non existent in US, but it is, somewhere else. To the anti-slay function isn't perfect. The only thing it does, it warns that you can't steal the rocket on this server, otherwise you receive a penalty, which is slay. Basically, it only prevent players from mass stealing or rushing to the middle to steal the rocket. In some way, you could say it's a guiding tool that teaches you the importance of positioning in dodgeball, if you stand in front of someone or behind them, and you get slayed for it, that means your positioning is poor and you should keep in mind your surroundings to avoid such situations in the future. Other things about the stealing rule is that it can be instantly enforced by staff on player if they cross the map and instant steals the rocket, which will cause admin to react and slay and respawn the dead player. Another thing that admin has to keep track of passive stealing, this is the most common thing now that players who know "how to play" do, they would steal the rocket with their poor positioning or just move around the map, however they want, while getting sniped and still taking rockets, without them actually being hit, they do get warned for it by the plugin that's why they only do it once, which means, they can't repeat it, so they just wait for a new round and repeat it again. I personally start slaying these players on their first steal if I notice passive stealing and not actually stealing, because they really needed to save themselves.

If the delay suggestion I made actually gets implemented, then delaying the rocket shouldn't even be a big deal anymore, this rule is useless anyway.
The delay is good, just the owner or dev has to change default value to not possible to orbit speeds or implement some more ways to punish delayers, after all new version supports natives.

The blocking rule NEEDS specification. There are too many situations where this vague rule could be applied. By the looks of it, staff only enforce this rule when a player gets within CQC range and tries to instantly reflect the enemy player's rocket in their face, killing the enemy. So, maybe this rule should be changed to outlaw instant air blasts instead? There are many players who like to play close, and the vagueness of this rule makes it confusing if CQC is allowed or not. I think it would be pretty unfair if CQC was not allowed, because most dodgeball players CQC a ton and if it were actually enforced, then many players would probably be perma banned by now.
The blocking used to work like this, when the collision was still a thing in the dodgeball, you could completely body block other players and give them 0 space to orbit or play. Which is why anti-block rule exists. Now, that we don't have collision, It works differently and might need some rephrasing and I would say it should be like this:
"If you go inside the players air blast range and preventing them from properly air blasting, which is instantly stealing, holding m2 or going inside the player, denying any his/hers ability to air blast. You will get warned and slayed for it".

No purposeful team killing (ex. orbiting the rocket while also walking towards another teammate in an attempt to get them killed). This rule should be enforced when it is clear that there was intent in the perpetrator's actions, because there are many ways you can both purposefully and accidentally team kill someone.
I think, team killing falls under griefing, such as going behind people and making them take the rocket for you or orbit into them, so they would die from it.

Add a votebounce plugin and give the option to vote for either bounce or no bounce. No bounce adds some new challenges, such as less of a reliance on orbiting and more skilled CQC, that make it more fun than bounce (in my opinion).
No bounce -_-
It reminds me, bad times. First it gives players ability to just kill someone without actually targeting them, which is downspiking close to the players and that's going to happen a lot, because maps aren't designed for waves, there's no way to prevent someone from crossing. Secondly, people will vote abuse it, in eu no one wanted it when I had it on my server running, yet some players were just doing the vote the same way as fgm... Even if it got enabled, it was voted off again, infinity loop.

Fix the rocket trail
  • The rocket's trail is too thick. Even with pyrovision, the trail stays for too long, making it hard to see the rocket when speeding or even just playing normally. (Supposedly this is because the trail stacks? Not sure, but it's an annoyance either way.)
The trails, can't you just get mod for it? Like download custom rockets/rocket trails for dodgeball etc. To, the rocket trail was never changed through dodgeballs history as it should represent default rocket of tf2.

Disable fall damage
  • Fall damage makes it impossible for players to rocket jump, please disable it.
I guess, but I feel like it's purpose would be to fly through map and just find other ways to steal rocket or gap close faster, so person can't escape cqc. kek
 

Weegeee

Unremarkable
Joined
Mar 14, 2020
Messages
19
The basketball rocket mechanic is highly used on EU and it creates some unique plays.
Now, I can imagine why it doesn't perform that way on US. It's because everyone steals there and it has no room to be used properly.
Stealing hardly impacts the basketball rocket.
Any play with the basketball rocket can be boiled down to backshotting 5 times and then doing something else. I feel like it isn't unique, and it gets annoying when someone holds M2 while backing up into you, making it impossible to easily catch it.

Orbit for a bot is great reminder that you can't expect players to give you straight rockets all the time and the best part about it, it ruins your timing.
To, the cfg for a bot that's being used, came from my server and it was designed to be the hardest bot ever and it does show the players, how todays dodgeball is played and trains them to accept the that will lose a lot.
No human dodgeball player can consistently orbit a 300mph rocket for 4 seconds and then comfortably upspike it. Any orbits past 200mph are usually half orbits, and past 400mph I'd say it's inhumane to even half orbit the rocket. The bot, however, manages to orbit all the way up to 400mph and beyond, completely ruining 1v1 speed battles with the bot. If the bots orbiting capabilities were capped at ~180mph, then yes, it would better portray how someone playing with BLW's rocket would play.

The stealing rule is enforced on all EU's dodgeball servers, so it might look like it's non existent in US, but it is, somewhere else. To the anti-slay function isn't perfect. The only thing it does, it warns that you can't steal the rocket on this server, otherwise you receive a penalty, which is slay. Basically, it only prevent players from mass stealing or rushing to the middle to steal the rocket. In some way, you could say it's a guiding tool that teaches you the importance of positioning in dodgeball, if you stand in front of someone or behind them, and you get slayed for it, that means your positioning is poor and you should keep in mind your surroundings to avoid such situations in the future. Other things about the stealing rule is that it can be instantly enforced by staff on player if they cross the map and instant steals the rocket, which will cause admin to react and slay and respawn the dead player. Another thing that admin has to keep track of passive stealing, this is the most common thing now that players who know "how to play" do, they would steal the rocket with their poor positioning or just move around the map, however they want, while getting sniped and still taking rockets, without them actually being hit, they do get warned for it by the plugin that's why they only do it once, which means, they can't repeat it, so they just wait for a new round and repeat it again. I personally start slaying these players on their first steal if I notice passive stealing and not actually stealing, because they really needed to save themselves.
This is a mostly fair argument, although I think it's pretty unfair that players are slain just because they were unfortunately in front of someone else and the rocket gets directed right to them. On a server which often reaches >12 players, it's common that some people will end up in front or behind others because of the maps not having enough room. If you can't steal at all, then you're basically locked to one section of the map because if you try to move somewhere else, there's a good chance that you'll be caught in the crossfire and have to steal to stay alive.

I think, team killing falls under griefing, such as going behind people and making them take the rocket for you or orbit into them, so they would die from it.
I still think the specification is nice, because technically none of these rules need to exist if the "no greifing" rule exists. Stealing, blocking, and suiciding to get others killed also impedes on the gamemode and ruin the experience for others (according to blw).

No bounce -_-
It reminds me, bad times. First it gives players ability to just kill someone without actually targeting them, which is downspiking close to the players and that's going to happen a lot, because maps aren't designed for waves, there's no way to prevent someone from crossing. Secondly, people will vote abuse it, in eu no one wanted it when I had it on my server running, yet some players were just doing the vote the same way as fgm... Even if it got enabled, it was voted off again, infinity loop.
You still need to direct people to kill them with a nobounce rocket. If you still think this is a problem, you could just reduce the splash radius of the rocket. Also, who cares if it gets voted on and off. When I and a few others are just playing to have fun, and we want it on, we can turn it on for ourselves. If there is a full server, and nobody wants it, then nobody will vote for it. If blind voting is an issue, then instead of just making the question "Enable No Bounce?" and the options "Yes" and "No", you can make the question "Bounce Mode?" and the options "Bounce" and "No Bounce".

The trails, can't you just get mod for it? Like download custom rockets/rocket trails for dodgeball etc. To, the rocket trail was never changed through dodgeballs history as it should represent default rocket of tf2.
Personally, I think it's ridiculous that I should have to get a mod to fix something that's wrong with the server. Also, there's no guarantee that the rocket smoke mod would even fix the problem. I doubt that this is a difficult problem to solve. It would make the rocket so much easier to see, and it wouldn't force every person who can't stand the length of the trail to download some random mod off gamebanana. Also, this rocket trail definitely is not the same as the default rocket's trail. Here's a picture of me shooting a default rocket on blucourt:
rocket.png

It might just be me, but that trail looks a lot thinner than the trail on blackwonder's rocket. So, obviously, something was changed.

I guess, but I feel like it's purpose would be to fly through map and just find other ways to steal rocket or gap close faster, so person can't escape cqc. kek
Rocket jumping is a technique that has been in dodgeball for a decade. It promotes skill-based play because the player who rocket jumps needs to be able to properly air strafe and position themselves so that they can hit the rocket midair or so they could land on the other side of the map. A player doesn't have to cqc when rocket jumping, they could in fact be escaping someone who is trying to cqc them (which is pretty hard to do when you're on blackwonder). There is absolutely no good reason that fall damage should be kept on.
 

Silorak

Monkas
Staff Member
Admin
Joined
Oct 8, 2017
Messages
77
Stealing hardly impacts the basketball rocket.
Any play with the basketball rocket can be boiled down to backshotting 5 times and then doing something else. I feel like it isn't unique, and it gets annoying when someone holds M2 while backing up into you, making it impossible to easily catch it.
I feel like, you are personally struggling against it. Because personally, I like that players can speed it up the rocket and send it back at faster speed, non the less, sometimes you can see two players using baseball rocket, one speeding up 4-5 times and at the moment where they release it another guy can deflect it back at the speeder and he can do few more deflects, giving you 7-8 deflected rocket. Baseball can be used in teamplay to, it's not a bad thing.

No human dodgeball player can consistently orbit a 300mph rocket for 4 seconds and then comfortably upspike it. Any orbits past 200mph are usually half orbits, and past 400mph I'd say it's inhumane to even half orbit the rocket. The bot, however, manages to orbit all the way up to 400mph and beyond, completely ruining 1v1 speed battles with the bot. If the bots orbiting capabilities were capped at ~180mph, then yes, it would better portray how someone playing with BLW's rocket would play.
Well, ok. I can't remember much about it's rocket orbit controller, but if possible to change that, it could be changed, so he can't go above 200mph.

This is a mostly fair argument, although I think it's pretty unfair that players are slain just because they were unfortunately in front of someone else and the rocket gets directed right to them. On a server which often reaches >12 players, it's common that some people will end up in front or behind others because of the maps not having enough room. If you can't steal at all, then you're basically locked to one section of the map because if you try to move somewhere else, there's a good chance that you'll be caught in the crossfire and have to steal to stay alive.
They can steal to save themselves non the less and you aren't really locked, you can rotate to other places and move back, forth, jump and crouch to avoid getting rocket into you if you already used your steal chances. To It just takes time for newer to get the idea, how this works and then soon enough, they become good at avoiding the death when the server is full.

I still think the specification is nice, because technically none of these rules need to exist if the "no greifing" rule exists. Stealing, blocking, and suiciding to get others killed also impedes on the gamemode and ruin the experience for others (according to blw).
Ok, I guess can be added as stand alone rule.


You still need to direct people to kill them with a nobounce rocket. If you still think this is a problem, you could just reduce the splash radius of the rocket. Also, who cares if it gets voted on and off. When I and a few others are just playing to have fun, and we want it on, we can turn it on for ourselves. If there is a full server, and nobody wants it, then nobody will vote for it. If blind voting is an issue, then instead of just making the question "Enable No Bounce?" and the options "Yes" and "No", you can make the question "Bounce Mode?" and the options "Bounce" and "No Bounce".
I will still go against it. Even by reducing the radius of AOE (That means the jump you want to do, like in the good old times, will be weaker and most likely non existent) there will be, some splash and no doubt, the players will still go close enough to try to pull out that AOE kill on you, as it's "fun" for them. I personally, never enjoyed getting killed by AOE, because some player flew on tfdb_float and orbitied for a while, till they just down spiked and the rocket ended me. To, I remember that people who didn't like to rally or had panic attacks on the fast rockets, they would just panic down spike, making rounds last long, because some players couldn't handle the speeds. In the end, this feature died and now we have rockets that bounce for a reason.


Personally, I think it's ridiculous that I should have to get a mod to fix something that's wrong with the server. Also, there's no guarantee that the rocket smoke mod would even fix the problem. I doubt that this is a difficult problem to solve. It would make the rocket so much easier to see, and it wouldn't force every person who can't stand the length of the trail to download some random mod off gamebanana. Also, this rocket trail definitely is not the same as the default rocket's trail. Here's a picture of me shooting a default rocket on blucourt:
It's nothing wrong with the server, it's actually problem with the tf2 client itself. It is not so easy, to fix this, because you will need to go to valve and patch that personally. The issue is that that rocket is being stacked on deflect and there's nothing we can do about it.


Rocket jumping is a technique that has been in dodgeball for a decade. It promotes skill-based play because the player who rocket jumps needs to be able to properly air strafe and position themselves so that they can hit the rocket midair or so they could land on the other side of the map. A player doesn't have to cqc when rocket jumping, they could in fact be escaping someone who is trying to cqc them (which is pretty hard to do when you're on blackwonder). There is absolutely no good reason that fall damage should be kept on.
I am 50/50 on this. Jumping with rocket isn't so skill based as you say, it was just to cross the map faster, travel to the other side and steal the rocket while flying. Even if you escape with it, no one stops cqc person from taking same route, which is getting hit and still gap close non the less. The only benefit it would give you is that you could climb down from high areas without taking dmg.
 
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