Pending Report against crikey, DaggerSable (JBUS)

[Gaben]

Who are you reporting? crikey, DaggerSable

What server game mode is the report concerned with?
JBUS

What is the accused persons's SteamID? unknown

What is the reason of the report? moderator/admin abuse, bad faith

Any other proof you have I have made a thread asking two legitimate questions I had about the rules of Jailbreak. https://blackwonder.tf/threads/two-simple-questions-about-jailbreak-rules.37317/#post-138081

I gave a lot of context regarding the questions, explained why specifically I was confused, and asked for answers to two specific questions.

Crikey responded with a dismissive "Use common sense" post, didn't even attempt to answer any of the questions I posed, falsely marked my question as resolved and closed the thread.

The response "use common sense" is unproductive because the whole point of the question is that people's sense of what is common sense and acceptable behavior in jailbreak varies, which is why the clarification was requested. The divergence of opinions on the jailbreak rules, even among admins, are documented in the thread as well as in other threads, for example in my teamban appeal thread:
https://blackwonder.tf/threads/icos999s-team-ban-appeal.35738/#post-133281

DaggerSable also claimed to know the answer to one of the questions (but didn't provide one, merely posted a rule which I was already very much aware of), accused me of being bad faith and trying to stir up trouble (does the effort that I obviously put into making the questions as clear as possible indicate me trying to stir up trouble?) and banned me from accessing forum account.

This kind of dismissive, bad faith behavior can fairly be called trolling in my opinion, and it not how a moderator should behave.

 

[Jermbo]

Hello,

I want to add this, crikey and DaggerSable are right for this, and I agree with Jim statement on behalf of your teamban appeal. I have good faith in our staff team. Yes, the rules might be a little bit outdated, but that is what it is.

If you can't take common sense seriously, I suggest playing on a different JB community, not playing our server and don't complaining about what Crikey and DaggerSable say.

 

[StenRodd]

Here's my opinion

Jailbreak is a bit complicate gamemode, players don't take the game seriously, we're here trying to have fun and goofing around.

I gave a lot of context regarding the questions, explained why specifically I was confused, and asked for answers to two specific questions.

Common sense rule meant using basic common sense like how much valid time does red needs or is it valid for everyone, and less questions, and of course interpreting rules, if you keep questioning about rules and gamemode mechanic i recommend not playing Jailbreak and taking a break from it, play other simple games with less rules. Jailbreak is not recommend for confusing players.

Crikey responded with a dismissive "Use common sense" post, didn't even attempt to answer any of the questions I posed, falsely marked my question as resolved and closed the thread.

Use common sense on how much time does red needs, as I said warden must use sense on how much time last red needed to finish it he must not give impossible orders even if user was delaying before.

The response "use common sense" is unproductive because the whole point of the question is that people's sense of what is common sense and acceptable behavior in jailbreak varies, which is why the clarification was requested. The divergence of opinions on the jailbreak rules, even among admins, are documented in the thread as well as in other threads, for example in my teamban appeal thread:

Declined - icos999's Team Ban appeal

Username: icos999 What is your type of punishment? Team Ban Where were you banned from? Servers What is your SteamID? icos999 Who has punished you? Jim Why were you punished? Freekill Why should we revoke your punishment...

blackwonder.tf

As i said Jailbreaks rules are complicated, I recommend not asking way too much questions about it and play the game, a lot of blus did mistake we only warned and spared them, common sense meant being normal human using common sense which most humans believe it's acceptable.

DaggerSable also claimed to know the answer to one of the questions (but didn't provide one, merely posted a rule which I was already very much aware of), accused me of being bad faith and trying to stir up trouble (does the effort that I obviously put into making the questions as clear as possible indicate me trying to stir up trouble?) and banned me from accessing forum account.

What DaggerSable did was same thing happened to other users by different staff, who were asking too much questions when they got answers and interpreting rules in an unreasonable manner, doing mass reports on players making mistake, provoking other players and causing huge dramas and conversational opinions among community resulting others involved when told them to stop but countinue doing it, which we do not accept that behaviour here at all, we all here trying to have fun, chill and less dramas among this community. I respected Dagger decision on this, since you are trying to cause dramas with other users even on staff team, you have provoked too many users, which we don't accept this.

Please do not take the gamemode way too seriously, just enjoy the game and less questions, ignore players who are intentionally wants your reaction like the ones you have arguement about Russia topic, if you have too much questions about rules, i recommend playing other games with less rules and questions.

That being said, good luck on future.

 

[Jelbwreak Wardwen]

Yeah Jailbreak is kinda a fuck up gamemode where people are lying to staffs and trying to survive from the reports..... This Drama never stops.... No offense but i'm also part of the problem

 

[icos999]

Jailbreak is a bit complicate gamemode, players don't take the game seriously, we're here trying to have fun and goofing around.

Clearly they do when I'm involved on blu. They even go as far as invent rules that are not in the wiki and to explicitly disagree with other admins to find an excuse to teamban me.

Common sense rule meant using basic common sense like how much valid time does red needs or is it valid for everyone, and less questions, and of course interpreting rules, if you keep questioning about rules and gamemode mechanic i recommend not playing Jailbreak and taking a break from it, play other simple games with less rules. Jailbreak is not recommend for confusing players.

Honestly the "common sense" excuse sounds so ridiculous at this point. if you read the threads I made, you will see multiple members of staff explicitly disagreeing with each other. To call the answer to such a question common sense is extremely dishonest, since clearly it's not common, even among admins. For example, Jim said they would not allow the warden to act such a way, while many other people (including 10k and DaggerSable have endorsed the warden's behavior. I genuinely wonder if you realize you're acting so dishonestly (perhaps you're just trolling).

As i said Jailbreaks rules are complicated

Not really. Jailbreak rules are not like math proofs that span hundreds of pages long. They're contained in two wiki pages, plus some unwritten rules that I ask admins about. And one of the things I asked the admins about was the thread I made, which I got BANNED for, which is completely ridiculous.

What DaggerSable did was same thing happened to other users by different staff, who were asking too much questions when they got answers and interpreting rules in an unreasonable manner,

This is just you being dishonest again. What rule did I interpret in an unreasonable manner and how? The whole reason I made the thread is that there was no rule in the wiki explicitly addressing the issue at hand. That's why I wanted to clarify it with staff.

common sense meant being normal human using common sense which most humans believe it's acceptable.

See my point above.

Please do not take the gamemode way too seriously, just enjoy the game and less questions

It's a kind of damned if I do and damned if I don't situation. If I don't ask questions and act according to the wiki rules, I get teambanned and ridiculed by the admins. If I do, I also get banned and ridiculed. Either you're forgetting my bans or you're again being dishonest.

provoking other players and causing huge dramas and conversational opinions among community resulting others involved when told them to stop but countinue doing it

What are you talking about? What dramas? I simply asked a question about JB rules. In the second thread especially, I made it as clear and explicit as is humanly possible that I do not want to cause any dramas and want to simply figure out the rules, and got banned for it.

doing mass reports on players making mistake

So you disapprove of players when they submit reports of other players breaking the rules? What mass reports are you referring to? I also got reported and teambanned a while ago for making mistakes (admittedly so) and I find nothing wrong with that. Do you explicitly discourage the reports of players breaking the rules? Please be clear, because otherwise this just reads like gaslighting on your part.

since you are trying to cause dramas with other users even on staff team

This is just more dishonest mindreading. I was literally asking simple yes/no/undefined questions that I expected to be answered by any staff member. I explicitly stated many times that I do not wish to accuse anyone of breaking any rules, and only to understand the rules better. Instead, people like you keep gaslighting me, and lying about me, accusing me of things I did not do and lying about my
intentions. "Trying to cause drama" please read the thread I made again and realize how absolutely ludicrous you sound.

 

[john/lazer]

icos

Clearly they do when I'm involved on blu. They even go as far as invent rules that are not in the wiki and to explicitly disagree with other admins to find an excuse to teamban me.

Honestly the "common sense" excuse sounds so ridiculous at this point. if you read the threads I made, you will see multiple members of staff explicitly disagreeing with each other. To call the answer to such a question common sense is extremely dishonest, since clearly it's not common, even among admins. For example, Jim said they would not allow the warden to act such a way, while many other people (including 10k and DaggerSable have endorsed the warden's behavior. I genuinely wonder if you realize you're acting so dishonestly (perhaps you're just trolling).


Not really. Jailbreak rules are not like math proofs that span hundreds of pages long. They're contained in two wiki pages, plus some unwritten rules that I ask admins about. And one of the things I asked the admins about was the thread I made, which I got BANNED for, which is completely ridiculous.

This is just you being dishonest again. What rule did I interpret in an unreasonable manner and how? The whole reason I made the thread is that there was no rule in the wiki explicitly addressing the issue at hand. That's why I wanted to clarify it with staff.

See my point above.

It's a kind of damned if I do and damned if I don't situation. If I don't ask questions and act according to the wiki rules, I get teambanned and ridiculed by the admins. If I do, I also get banned and ridiculed. Either you're forgetting my bans or you're again being dishonest.


What are you talking about? What dramas? I simply asked a question about JB rules. In the second thread especially, I made it as clear and explicit as is humanly possible that I do not want to cause any dramas and want to simply figure out the rules, and got banned for it.

So you disapprove of players when they submit reports of other players breaking the rules? What mass reports are you referring to? I also got reported and teambanned a while ago for making mistakes (admittedly so) and I find nothing wrong with that. Do you explicitly discourage the reports of players breaking the rules? Please be clear, because otherwise this just reads like gaslighting on your part.


This is just more dishonest mindreading. I was literally asking simple yes/no/undefined questions that I expected to be answered by any staff member. I explicitly stated many times that I do not wish to accuse anyone of breaking any rules, and only to understand the rules better. Instead, people like you keep gaslighting me, and lying about me, accusing me of things I did not do and lying about my
intentions. "Trying to cause drama" please read the thread I made again and realize how absolutely ludicrous you sound.

icos
be like = 1-wake up 2-boot up pc 3-opens tf2 4- join blackwonder jb us 5-report everyone 6-yap about hating admins

 

[Peter]

Clearly they do when I'm involved on blu. They even go as far as invent rules that are not in the wiki and to explicitly disagree with other admins to find an excuse to teamban me.

What do you think people dislike about you being on blu?

Honestly the "common sense" excuse sounds so ridiculous at this point. if you read the threads I made, you will see multiple members of staff explicitly disagreeing with each other. To call the answer to such a question common sense is extremely dishonest, since clearly it's not common, even among admins. For example, Jim said they would not allow the warden to act such a way, while many other people (including 10k and DaggerSable have endorsed the warden's behavior. I genuinely wonder if you realize you're acting so dishonestly (perhaps you're just trolling).

Common sense can very often be used to dictate how much time is reasonable for a given situation.

Not really. Jailbreak rules are not like math proofs that span hundreds of pages long. They're contained in two wiki pages, plus some unwritten rules that I ask admins about. And one of the things I asked the admins about was the thread I made, which I got BANNED for, which is completely ridiculous.

The Jailbreak rules are kept fairly concise so players can get a general understanding quickly.

This is just you being dishonest again. What rule did I interpret in an unreasonable manner and how? The whole reason I made the thread is that there was no rule in the wiki explicitly addressing the issue at hand. That's why I wanted to clarify it with staff.

Rodd wasn't necessarily talking about you here. Some people use answers given by staff to try and catch reds out and kill them.

It's a kind of damned if I do and damned if I don't situation. If I don't ask questions and act according to the wiki rules, I get teambanned and ridiculed by the admins. If I do, I also get banned and ridiculed. Either you're forgetting my bans or you're again being dishonest.

Most blus do just fine without needing to ask questions on the forums. It is not dishonest to advise against taking a game too seriously.

What are you talking about? What dramas? I simply asked a question about JB rules. In the second thread especially, I made it as clear and explicit as is humanly possible that I do not want to cause any dramas and want to simply figure out the rules, and got banned for it.

The question that you "simply" asked was very clearly referring to a situation that happened in-game.

In that thread you made, @bergenco answered your question and you proceeded to ignore the context he gave and came to the conclusion that he had said impossible orders were allowed. Maybe that will help you see why your questions were not taken so seriously.

So you disapprove of players when they submit reports of other players breaking the rules? What mass reports are you referring to? I also got reported and teambanned a while ago for making mistakes (admittedly so) and I find nothing wrong with that. Do you explicitly discourage the reports of players breaking the rules? Please be clear, because otherwise this just reads like gaslighting on your part.

Reporting players for any and every mistake, misunderstanding, or minor rule break is a good way to suck the fun out of the gamemode for a large amount of the playerbase.

This is just more dishonest mindreading. I was literally asking simple yes/no/undefined questions that I expected to be answered by any staff member. I explicitly stated many times that I do not wish to accuse anyone of breaking any rules, and only to understand the rules better. Instead, people like you keep gaslighting me, and lying about me, accusing me of things I did not do and lying about my
intentions. "Trying to cause drama" please read the thread I made again and realize how absolutely ludicrous you sound.

Rodd is not the one who sounds ludicrous in this situation.

 

[icos999]

Dear Peter,

What do you think people dislike about you being on blu?

I believe it's mainly due to my strict (relative to the mean) enforcement of orders as a blu. Some people dislike the change from the conventional blu playstyle. As a blu, I try to provide the experience I myself would like to have as a red.

Common sense can very often be used to dictate how much time is reasonable for a given situation.

I agree. I have never disagreed with this. And the threads were never about "how much time is reasonable". The question was always and explicitly about warden giving orders that are impossible to complete. I.e. it was explicitly about situations where it was already out of the question of whether the order was possible to complete.
The situation is like this: I ask a question of the form "Given X, is Y true?". Your and so many other people's contention seems to be "But what if X not true?", or simply to say "If X is false, then Y is true". Neither response addresses the question and is obviously just a distraction/deflection. Here X stands for "warden giving orders that are impossible to complete", and Y being "that order being allowed".

The Jailbreak rules are kept fairly concise so players can get a general understanding quickly.

That's completely fine. However, you shouldn't punish, make fun of and lie about players who make an honest attempt to understand the rules that are not in the wiki.

Most blus do just fine without needing to ask questions on the forums.

That's correct. The reason for this is that they have a conventional play style, they do not innovate and simply mimic what they've seen other wardens do. However, someone who likes to have and provide a richer, less conventional jailbreak experience will naturally try to figure out the less spelled out rules of the game.

The question that you "simply" asked was very clearly referring to a situation that happened in-game.

You either haven't read those threads or are dishonestly lying to mislead others who will not bother to read the threads (wouldn't be the first time). I explicitly and repeatedly explained that the thread was inspired by an incident that happened during gameplay but I had no interest in seeing any player reported or punished for it. The question was a question about the rules in the abstract, to help clear up understanding of the rules. Here are some quotes that demonstrate this

10k (an admin) said the question is a waste of time unless I provide a concrete demo of what actually happened. I did not think a demo was necessary, since my question is not just about the situation that actually transpired in the demo, but rather a question about the general principles and a few other situations (which admins rudely dismissed as being obvious but haven't actually provided a simple yes/no answer).

I do not know whether the warden broke the rules or not when he gave me the order (which is the whole point of this and the previous thread), and I would have preferred not the post the demo to make it clear that I'm not trying to accuse anyone or cause drama, merely to better understand the rules. I only posted the demo because 10k accused me of wasting time if I don't post it, and implied that the thread will be closed/archived.
I implore the reader not to take the demo as being the whole point of the thread. Instead, try to engage with the hypotheticals I provided, so that together we can all gain a better understanding of jailbreak rules without fighting over particular people or situations.

The question isn't about this particular situation. The question is about the principle of a warden giving orders that are literally impossible to complete for certain players (not for all players).

Given these quotes, it's completely obvious that you're just outright lying, and honestly I'm having a lot of trouble understanding why.

In that thread you made, @bergenco answered your question and you proceeded to ignore the context he gave and came to the conclusion that he had said impossible orders were allowed. Maybe that will help you see why your questions were not taken so seriously.

He did not answer the question directly, and in my interpretation of his post he implied that impossible orders were allowed by warden. That is because he didn't address the question of whether the order was possible to complete for all non rebelling reds at the time that the warden gave out the order, and instead focused on the progress of others in the minigame. This implies he did not think the main assumption of the question, i.e. the assumption that the order given is impossible to complete for all non rebelling red, provided an automatic answer of "no", and instead focused on other aspects of the situation, like the progress of various reds in the minigame. This logically implies that he's saying "yes, impossible orders are allowed sometimes" and in the following conversation I tried to figure out the exact conditions in which it was allowed.
I even asked afterwards a few simple yes/no/depends questions that brought the topic back to what the thread was about, and bergenco refused to engage with them.
To me it's so obvious that bergenco didn't actually answer the question that I can't help but think that you're simply lying or trolling when you claim he did.

Reporting players for any and every mistake, misunderstanding, or minor rule break is a good way to suck the fun out of the gamemode for a large amount of the playerbase.

Anyone who plays with me on JBUS knows that I frequently will not report things even though the person breaks a rule. I understand people sometimes make mistakes, and if they're apologetic about it (i.e. apologize and slay themselves after freekilling), I will usually not report them. There have been periods where I reported people more frequently, and I think that's totally fine. In my opinion, reports are not what sucks the fun out of the game. Rather it's the punishments, especially unjust punishments (which are unfortunately all too common on this server), which are all at the discretion of the staff rather than the person who made the report.

Rodd is not the one who sounds ludicrous in this situation.

He is in my opinion. I asked a question which can be answered in a paragraph or even a single sentence. Instead, the thread was derailed by irrelevant concerns, asking for a demo (when the question was explicitly about the rules themselves, not any particular situation), I was gaslit, accused of various untrue things. To this day, the question has not been explicitly answered. The closest it ever got to being answered was by Jim, who disagreed with most other staff members and declared that in the particular demo (which I did not want to shared but was ordered to share by 10k) the warden would have broken a rule. Yet he didn't answer the question of general principle.