Pending Proposal to Rework the Battalion's Backup on 100% Crits Servers

[CRHalby]

Please refer to the linked PDF document for my argument.

 

[condom_fish]

You responded with “Regardless with what you type I’m against your suggestion” What im saying is that ypu appear to have some beef with one of them because you just shoot down any idea of change regardless of any possible fix WHICH WE EVENTUALLY FOUND.

 

[crikey]

What im saying is that ypu appear to have some beef with one of them because you just shoot down any idea of change regardless of any possible fix WHICH WE EVENTUALLY FOUND.

I'm against any change to the current system. No one should be forced to agree with whatever fix was suggested. Just because I don't agree with a suggestion or any compromises to it, doesn't mean I have beef with the person in question.

 

[LOONATEEK]

I say dont change it because soldier is one of the hardest classes since, 1 you can dodge rockets, 2 pyro, 3 sniper

 

[condom_fish]

Sniper does 33 when it is active i need to test rockets when airblasted and when you are using liberty launcher while trying not to die from snipers and spies it makes it harder to dodge.

 

[CRHalby]

I say dont change it because soldier is one of the hardest classes since, 1 you can dodge rockets, 2 pyro, 3 sniper

'Points' 2 and 3 are discussed within the document.

 

[DaggerSable]

I'm also against changing the Backup.

This was going to be a longer post, talking about other "overpowered" weapons in 100% crits and such, but I'll keep it short.

As far as counters go, the Backup still doesn't block backstabs. The amount of times I've stabbed an overconfident Soldier as they try to spawncamp is hilarious. Demomen with the Quickiebomb launcher also tend to fare well against Backup soldiers, because the distance they favor fighting at allows the Demo to easily dodge Soldiers rockets (even ones with faster projectile speed, like the Liberty Launcher), and the damage output from the Quickiebombs is still significant even factoring in the damage reduction and immunity to crits of the Backup. Scouts with the Shortstop also fill the same role. Due to the higher mobility of the class, and the mid-range combat the Shortstop favors, they have no problem maneuvering around Soldier's slow projectiles and slapping him down with the quick fire rate and reload on the Shortstop. Sure, the Backup counters "traditionally" good classes in 100%, like the Sniper and Enforcer Spies, but the Backup itself has several counters that you failed to list. On top of that, the "counter with the same weapon" can be fired right back at Backup haters. Just equip the Backup yourself and outplay them.


Unless the weapon in question genuinely breaks the game as a whole, if shouldn't be changed. By the logic of removing the Backup from 100% crits, we should also remove Engineer from playing Defense on Class Wars, because he's unfun to play against, has the fewest counters of any class in the gamemode, and is only beaten with a frankly ludicrous difference in skill, or lucky RTDs. At absolute worst, increasing the damage threshold to activate it like 10k suggested could be a compromise, but I really don't see a reason to compromise on a weapon that already doesn't perform as dominantly as other loadouts on the server.

 

[hsuna]

For every point I address, I'm gonna assume the soldier is taking a campy-type play style of hiding in tower, building up charge by throwing rockets near spawn, and then going out once active. The status effect is the main problem with this item and that's what I hope we can address.

As far as counters go, the Backup still doesn't block backstabs. The amount of times I've stabbed an overconfident Soldier as they try to spawncamp is hilarious.

With all due respect, this is extremely unreasonable and is almost impossible. Any decently aware soldier can easily hear decloak from any of the watches and spy's limited health pool and movement makes it extremely hard to pull off.

Demomen with the Quickiebomb launcher also tend to fare well against Backup soldiers, because the distance they favor fighting at allows the Demo to easily dodge Soldiers rockets (even ones with faster projectile speed, like the Liberty Launcher), and the damage output from the Quickiebombs is still significant even factoring in the damage reduction and immunity to crits of the Backup.

I do agree with this being arguably one of two really good options to deal with a soldier utilizing this play style except for the fact that even at a range it's more than easy to dodge stickies. Moreover, while you might be dodging his rockets, that doesn't stop them from killing other people. As well as you can play, the root problem is the status effect. I disagree with the idea that counters can do a good enough job to stop the problem, due to the fact that as well as you can play, you cannot expect the same from your team.

This is more so a personal opinion and retracts from the relatively objective discussion on this topic, but in a game mode like this, I strongly believe people should be able to freely play what they want and deal with different situations. Making every class viable before and after his charge activation would personally be better than forcing a swap to one class with a chance that you might possibly stop them prior to the activation.

Scouts with the Shortstop also fill the same role. Due to the higher mobility of the class, and the mid-range combat the Shortstop favors, they have no problem maneuvering around Soldier's slow projectiles and slapping him down with the quick fire rate and reload on the Shortstop.

Anyone could hide their model behind cover and make it so the shortstop's benefits of quick fire and range are nonexistent. Moreover a liberty launcher user will have no problem killing a scout.

On top of that, the "counter with the same weapon" can be fired right back at Backup haters. Just equip the Backup yourself and outplay them.

My response to this will be biased as I think using something this OP is just not fun for myself or the other team, and greatly prefer other options to outplay that very problem and dominant hit-scan classes, such as utilizing quick rollouts to surprise enemies.

Unless the weapon in question genuinely breaks the game as a whole, if shouldn't be changed. By the logic of removing the Backup from 100% crits, we should also remove Engineer from playing Defense on Class Wars, because he's unfun to play against, has the fewest counters of any class in the gamemode, and is only beaten with a frankly ludicrous difference in skill, or lucky RTDs. At absolute worst, increasing the damage threshold to activate it like 10k suggested could be a compromise, but I really don't see a reason to compromise on a weapon that already doesn't perform as dominantly as other loadouts on the server.

I feel like it's not right to compare extreme game modes with extreme concepts to the 100% crits server as at its basis, nothing is different from playing stock control points except that you always have crits. Class wars with defense is an extreme situation where it's a game mechanic to all be one class (in this case engineers) and play around each class' benefits (such as planting massive nests at chokes); orange is at its root deathmatch based with no other gimmick outside of the server plugins such as thirdperson or RTD. I just think this comparison is unfair.

The only reason I would argue that this item isn't dominate is cause only one person in the entire active playerbase uses it. Playing against numerous soldiers all running this would be extremely difficult as other classes and I would argue a soldier himself (possibly running backup or not) could be the only true counter to this problematic item.

 

[DaggerSable]

With all due respect, this is extremely unreasonable and is almost impossible. Any decently aware soldier can easily hear decloak from any of the watches and spy's limited health pool and movement makes it extremely hard to pull off.

This is true of Spy in literally every game mode. It might be exacerbated by being 1-hit with crits, but this is something Big Earner spies face in every gamemode. Quite literally a skill diff.

Anyone could hide their model behind cover and make it so the shortstop's benefits of quick fire and range are nonexistent. Moreover a liberty launcher user will have no problem killing a scout.

Again, this is true of every single gamemode. Any Scout with the Candy Cane can be 1-shot, just the same as in 100% crits, and this is something that can be overcome.

My response to this will be biased as I think using something this OP is just not fun for myself or the other team, and greatly prefer other options to outplay that very problem and dominant hit-scan classes, such as utilizing quick rollouts to surprise enemies.

Biased is the right word. Generally speaking, Spy's best counter-play is map awareness. The original post even sites the best way to counter a Sniper is simply being better. Soldier, using the backup or not, is countered by skilled movement.

I feel like it's not right to compare extreme game modes with extreme concepts to the 100% crits server as at its basis, nothing is different from playing stock control points except that you always have crits.

Nothing is different from playing stock control points except that the teams are made up of all the same class, which is a more reasonable scenario in the base game. These gamemodes are inherently chaotic due to taking the base game and expounding on mechanics that already exist, whether or not that makes the gameplay balanced. An unfair comparison would be pitting it up against x100 or similar gamemodes, where all balance has completely flown out the window, and the game isn't played in a normal manner at all.

Ya'll are mad at players for using a crutch. They always will. Even though it's a crutch, there's still counterplay. My Spy comment is from personal experience, and more often than not I backstab the Soldier, no matter if they're camping the tower, or around the corner of spawn.

I strongly believe people should be able to freely play what they want and deal with different situations.

If this is truly your viewpoint, then we should remove the Enforcer from Spy, and remove Sniper as a whole. One-shot hitscan classes are far more dominant than Backup Soldiers, even if one or more are in the game. For the low-low price of aiming, you're a far better class than Soldier. If the Backup is the only thing making Soldier viable because it makes up for slow projectile speed, lower blast radius of weapons with faster projectile speed (like the Liberty Launcher), and his slow base speed, then if it was not counterplayable I'd be on board. I presented the counterplays, and you called the one I literally see pulled off (and pull off myself) most often "extremely hard to pull off".

 

[hsuna]

Hey Dagger just wanted to say I appreciate the constructive feedback as to why you disagree with the proposal.

If we're boiling the argument back down to skill-check I will reply in that regard first.

Spy doing anything regarding backstabbing in orange crits is still unfeasible. Personal anecdote doesn't help the case for me.
Scout's range bonus will be irrelevant if the soldier never peeks and once the scout does enter the tower, on the assumption that the soldier has charge and status effect active (as it's extremely easy to keep up, one could assume it's almost always active), they're useless.
The counter is skilled movement if they don't have the status effect. There is no counter when they have it.

Nothing is different from playing stock control points except that the teams are made up of all the same class, which is a more reasonable scenario in the base game. These gamemodes are inherently chaotic due to taking the base game and expounding on mechanics that already exist, whether or not that makes the gameplay balanced. An unfair comparison would be pitting it up against x100 or similar gamemodes, where all balance has completely flown out the window, and the game isn't played in a normal manner at all.

I do see your point with how it's really not that different, but one expects that scenario of possibly being useless against a nest of engies when playing class wars. If I'm playing crits, I expect the enemy to take critical hits and die somewhat fast because every class has that benefit no matter who they're up against. The back up giving oneself crit negation while the enemy simply can't do anything to eliminate them makes it inherently unfun.

If this is truly your viewpoint, then we should remove the Enforcer from Spy, and remove Sniper as a whole. One-shot hitscan classes are far more dominant than Backup Soldiers, even if one or more are in the game. For the low-low price of aiming, you're a far better class than Soldier. If the Backup is the only thing making Soldier viable because it makes up for slow projectile speed, lower blast radius of weapons with faster projectile speed (like the Liberty Launcher), and his slow base speed, then if it was not counterplayable I'd be on board. I presented the counterplays, and you called the one I literally see pulled off (and pull off myself) most often "extremely hard to pull off".

I don't agree with class removal in any manner as even with lack of interaction, the few times you interact you can skill diff any class if you're playing right. I just believe the backup is too powerful and needs alterations.

While we might disagree on how approachable different options are as skill checks against the item, this still doesn't discuss the fact regarding the interactions of a person with the backup and an enemy. I could play the game perfectly, not get hit, and not see the other person while they're building up charge, yet the times I do happen to fight them, they have the status effect. I apologize as I may have made it unclear, but my intention with each reply to your points was to show that how useless one person can feel if the other team isn't playing as skillfully as one might be. That is the main issue I wanted to highlight with the item and while I understand that each scenario you presented above is possible, being feasible is also another realm. When the server is full you won't always interact with the same people in fights and often times it'll only be a few same people. On the off chance you do finally see the soldier, and they have the status effect, what can you do except run away?

For example take a random game where opponents build ult charge by damaging the enemies and one character has an ult that makes them near invincible, why is the argument being proposed to simply kill them first and make it impossible for them to play? It's just not possible against good players.

Black Desert Online, an MMO, went through this exact same problem with certain magical casters being inherently OP due to have a skill that negates almost all damage in large scale PvP. Large groups and guilds would then rotate groups of casters to always maintain this skill when diving into a group or attacking a base, keeping them essentially immortal for 20sec-1min. The point shouldn't be to run in and kill that magical caster first and hopefully pick them off due to luck when they're surrounded by their team; wouldn't the better idea be to just nerf the caster so that instead of giving a full damage negation buff, they just get bonus flat damage resistance (which is what was done to balance the PvP scene).

If you had the same situation in crits with 5 people running the backup and everyone rotating it once one player's status effect goes down, how is this not inherently busted when regarding the nature of the game? The point isn't also that it's a group effort of multiple casters causing the problem, even one witch or wizard (the casters) or in our case a soldier, can be problematic in themselves due to this ability. In the end, I would argue that I'm fine with even keeping the current charge damage needed to fully charge the item, removing the crit negation is what I think would be best. However, I do support 10k's compromise of increasing the amount of damage needed to charge the item to full as well.

 

[CRHalby]

This is true of Spy in literally every game mode. It might be exacerbated by being 1-hit with crits, but this is something Big Earner spies face in every gamemode. Quite literally a skill diff.



Again, this is true of every single gamemode. Any Scout with the Candy Cane can be 1-shot, just the same as in 100% crits, and this is something that can be overcome.


Biased is the right word. Generally speaking, Spy's best counter-play is map awareness. The original post even sites the best way to counter a Sniper is simply being better. Soldier, using the backup or not, is countered by skilled movement.


Nothing is different from playing stock control points except that the teams are made up of all the same class, which is a more reasonable scenario in the base game. These gamemodes are inherently chaotic due to taking the base game and expounding on mechanics that already exist, whether or not that makes the gameplay balanced. An unfair comparison would be pitting it up against x100 or similar gamemodes, where all balance has completely flown out the window, and the game isn't played in a normal manner at all.

Ya'll are mad at players for using a crutch. They always will. Even though it's a crutch, there's still counterplay. My Spy comment is from personal experience, and more often than not I backstab the Soldier, no matter if they're camping the tower, or around the corner of spawn.



If this is truly your viewpoint, then we should remove the Enforcer from Spy, and remove Sniper as a whole. One-shot hitscan classes are far more dominant than Backup Soldiers, even if one or more are in the game. For the low-low price of aiming, you're a far better class than Soldier. If the Backup is the only thing making Soldier viable because it makes up for slow projectile speed, lower blast radius of weapons with faster projectile speed (like the Liberty Launcher), and his slow base speed, then if it was not counterplayable I'd be on board. I presented the counterplays, and you called the one I literally see pulled off (and pull off myself) most often "extremely hard to pull off".

I'm getting tired of seeing a lot of these 'just get good'-esc comments, so I'll address it here.

I didn't originally make this post to proclaim my salt that I can't seem to win against the Battalion's Backup. If that was my goal, I simply wouldn't have made the suggestion. I made this suggestion because I believe that the Battalion's Backup ruins the flow of the game and the experience of 100% crits. If you want to come to this post and tell anyone in agreeance that they should just 'get good', that's fine. But please know you haven't added anything to your argument and just look immature.

With THAT out of the way...

I made points regarding the Enforce-Spy and Sniper in my middle school grade essay, and I stand by those. Those two classes are not the same compared to the Battalion's Backup Soldier. Sniper counters Sniper, Enforcer-Spy counters... well, another Enforcer-Spy. In the sniper instance- yes, that is a skill issue. If you aren't able out-snipe the enemy sniper, that's on you. But if you can't snipe the Soldier with the BB on the Tower, that's not a skill issue. Damage output during the BB aside, even without the buffs a sniper will only deal 150 dmg to the Soldier, leaving them with 70 HP. This gives the Soldier plenty of time to whip out the Escape Plan and run to the nearest health kit to restore back to full health, and the cycle continues. Enforcer-Spy is the same situation- shoot your shot, doesn't fully kill the Soldier, Soldier heals to full, and back to the beginning.

Finally, I would like to refer back to @10000 Cold Knights and the compromised change they suggested. At the very least, I think increasing the amount of damage needed to pull off a Battalion's Backup push is a great idea. It gives the opposing team a better chance to push forward and would make the gameplay feel like there's more momentum.

 

[DaggerSable]

If you want to come to this post and tell anyone in agreeance that they should just 'get good', that's fine. But please know you haven't added anything to your argument and just look immature.

Ah, so we've reached the part of the debate where you start attacking the person instead of the argument. Congratulations.

If you actually read what I had to say, you'd see that the only point where I actually said "get good" was in regards to Spy. However, since you've chosen to go down the route of insulting rather than actually making a good case;

If you aren't able out-snipe the enemy sniper, that's on you.

If you can't out-Battalion the enemy Battalion, that's on you.

 

[CRHalby]

Ah, so we've reached the part of the debate where you start attacking the person instead of the argument. Congratulations.

If you actually read what I had to say, you'd see that the only point where I actually said "get good" was in regards to Spy. However, since you've chosen to go down the route of insulting rather than actually making a good case;



If you can't out-Battalion the enemy Battalion, that's on you.

I should've been more clear: that wasn't directed completely towards you. A few other posts before this specifically mentioned 'getting good', which is what I was more so referring to. I apologize for not making that part clear in my original post. I did, however, see your comment: "Ya'll are mad at players for using a crutch." and took it in the same manner. We aren't mad. We would just like to see a positive change in gameplay.

If you truly believe what I said was an insult, I apologize. But you must also see that comments saying to "get good" aren't productive and only make the poster look immature.

If you can't out-Battalion the enemy Battalion, that's on you.

Sniper is 1-1, Soldier is more so one has a charged battalions and you have nothing. Different arguments.

 

[LOONATEEK]

I'm getting tired of seeing a lot of these 'just get good'-esc comments, so I'll address it here.

I didn't originally make this post to proclaim my salt that I can't seem to win against the Battalion's Backup. If that was my goal, I simply wouldn't have made the suggestion. I made this suggestion because I believe that the Battalion's Backup ruins the flow of the game and the experience of 100% crits. If you want to come to this post and tell anyone in agreeance that they should just 'get good', that's fine. But please know you haven't added anything to your argument and just look immature.

With THAT out of the way...

I made points regarding the Enforce-Spy and Sniper in my middle school grade essay, and I stand by those. Those two classes are not the same compared to the Battalion's Backup Soldier. Sniper counters Sniper, Enforcer-Spy counters... well, another Enforcer-Spy. In the sniper instance- yes, that is a skill issue. If you aren't able out-snipe the enemy sniper, that's on you. But if you can't snipe the Soldier with the BB on the Tower, that's not a skill issue. Damage output during the BB aside, even without the buffs a sniper will only deal 150 dmg to the Soldier, leaving them with 70 HP. This gives the Soldier plenty of time to whip out the Escape Plan and run to the nearest health kit to restore back to full health, and the cycle continues. Enforcer-Spy is the same situation- shoot your shot, doesn't fully kill the Soldier, Soldier heals to full, and back to the beginning.

Finally, I would like to refer back to @10000 Cold Knights and the compromised change they suggested. At the very least, I think increasing the amount of damage needed to pull off a Battalion's Backup push is a great idea. It gives the opposing team a better chance to push forward and would make the gameplay feel like there's more momentum.

But its easy to dodge soldiers' projectiles if its afar but if you were a sniper in regular tf2 u are dead if they were close to you any ways so...

 

[Jermbo]

I don't know why this becoming a big deal. If we can't agree on the same page, just leave this alone.