Declined Legalize Lethal Taunts

[RatherStrange]

I may not exactly be a veteran player of your Jailbreak server but I hope you will hear me out when I ask that the ruling against lethal taunts should be removed or at the very least loosened by some degree. Now I do understand why the ruling exists to begin with: lethal taunts can kill guards, therefore making them rebels for attempting to do so. However, it should be noted that pulling off a lethal taunt to begin with is usually very difficult, it's not something one can just pull out instantly and a guard is dead. Lethal taunts require precision, often a single teammate being in the way can block it, and they often have a short range or very small window in which it will connect with the intended target. On top of precision, Lethal Taunts are not instantaneous, and all of them, even the dangerous Showdown (Pow) Taunt has a clear sign as to when a player is using it and can easily be evaded so long as a guard keeps their eyes open. It should also be noted that most reds will rarely have the opportunity to even perform a taunt kill at all; the only ranged taunt, Showdown, is really only able to be used in situations where the reds are not AFK and there is a clear line of sight to the Blu Team; most other taunt kills will only really work if the red performing it is rebelling already anyway, due to their short range.

Now with all that said, I would like to clarify that I do not propose that Lethal Taunts should be able to be used without punishment at all. I'd like to compare this to letting Medics heal. Healing in of itself is inoffensive but can still be used as a tool for rebelling, namely in the form of ubercharge. A competent Medic and healing target, if the Medic is allowed to build uber, could potentially be devastating for the Blu Team. Now, compared to Taunt Kills, these are also essentially a form of igniting a rebellion should the Red be allowed to actually pull off the Taunt Kill. Should a warden be concerned about themself or their Blus being taunt killed then they can simply call for Lethal Taunts to be KOS-able, much like the aforementioned Medics healing.

If the argument above is not enough to convince the change to the ruling in that manner, then I would at least like to propose a tweak to the rule so that Reds cannot be killed for just performing a lethal taunt. It seems rather silly that just performing a lethal taunt in a scenario in which it is harmless can land a KOS on a red. The rule should at least be tweaked to where a Red cannot be killed from doing a lethal taunt unless they are A. Actively trying to kill Blus (lethal taunting in their general direction [regardless of player's perspective]) or B. Unless they actually kill someone with said lethal taunt.

I do hope you will consider my suggestion(/s).

 

[Cammy]

Even if lethal taunts were legal, you'd still be KoS for using it while AFK Frozen, which is almost always in effect when the Warden isn't leading you somewhere. That being said, 99% of the time, you won't have the chance to do a taunt that isn't an AFK one.

During the time I played JB on BLW, every round included one of the following: 'Lethal taunts are KoS', 'Taunting is KoS' or 'You are only allowed to use AFK taunts'.
In most instances, you are KoS for doing any normal taunt as you are delaying the Warden's current order to do this.

Your argument for Medics healing is not a fair comparison considering the Warden typically restricts a Medic's healing and forces them to pop their Uber if they gain one before this order is given.

Lethal taunts are inherently aggressive and are an immediate threat to the BLU team. The player has chosen to attempt to kill a guard, and are now rebelling as a result. It doesn't matter where it's aimed, it is still an aggressive action. Guards come in all skill ranges and it is always disallowed by Wardens even with minimal experience.

The rule is in place to save having to give that order.

 

[RatherStrange]

The point of the "Medic's No Healing" comparison was specifically to emphasize that Lethal Taunts can just be restricted outright by the warden.

While I will agree that Lethal Taunts can be seen as an aggressive action, I think you're a little one-sided as you only defended the Guards' side of the argument: failing to account for newer prisoners. I'd like to again emphasize that being killed over a taunt kill that is completely harmless (which I'll admit I did not go over as well), is outright ridiculous. What I mean by a "harmless" lethal taunt is when the lethal taunt physically cannot kill a guard (I.E. Into a wall or in a confined area where the Blus cannot be touched at all [Such as cells when doors are closed]).

While my time on BLW JB has been admittedly shorter, spanning likely no more than a month in total playtime, compared to your experience, I think my experience on the server still matters. Which leads me to say that I've rarely heard a Warden say that Lethal Taunts are KOS, if ever at all. Even then, wardens that give the order to begin with are likely new to the server and may not even know that the ruling exists, so I find that point invalid (I'd also argue the same for "Taunting is KOS" as that is usually only used during games like Bumble Beam or Meat Grinder, though I can't vouch for the last one).

And as you mentioned, Reds are likely going to be AFK frozen in most scenarios anyway, which being that the case then it makes me question again why the ruling is even there? Yes, Lethal Taunts are not AFK taunts, so of course they'd be KOS anyway if they're going to do them while an order to remain AFK frozen is given, making that point redundant.

You also seem to imply that Taunt Kills would just be thrown out all willy-nilly, completely ignoring the fact that I mentioned how precise they are to begin with. The one that most players would likely use is the Showdown taunt, the only ranged Lethal Taunt, which is hard to pull off effectively in most scenarios due to the closed space of most maps (at least within minigames) and how long it takes for the taunt to even go off (it may be the shortest but it still takes a few seconds, giving a guard plenty of time to react).

I still at least advocate for a lift on it being KOS regardless of its use, at the very least the taunt should be able to kill someone (as in, if it is performed then it should only be treated as KOS if a Blu would actually be at risk of dying to it; using a lethal taunt while cell doors are closed and there are no outside openings should not warrant a KOS).

EDIT: I also would like to point out that both cases can be seen as a learning experience in regards to new Guards and new Prisoners. If a newer guard gets killed by a taunt kill, then they will learn to be cautious when prisoners have an opening to do so. If a newer prisoner gets killed for taunt killing, then they simply learn to not taunt kill. It works in both directions (under the presumption lethal taunts are made completely legal and not one of the aforementioned compromises, though it is arguable that the compromise for "If lethal taunt kills you're KOS" that the guard killed by said Lethal Taunt can learn to be more careful).

 

[Jim]

Your suggestion doesn't make sense. Making lethal taunting a warden restriction just gives warden another thing to remember to say every round senselessly because there's no reason not to.

 

[Jim]

I'd like to again emphasize that being killed over a taunt kill that is completely harmless (which I'll admit I did not go over as well), is outright ridiculous.

This is an oxymoron.

 

[10000 Cold Knights]

I'm sorry, but I can't not comment on this.
The heavy's Showdown kill taunt is one of the most underrated rebel tactics in the game. I personally have taken down entire teams of guards with it, and thats just me, with the taunt being auto KoS. Now picture an entire team of red mittens heavies, 20 strong at least, all finger gunning anything that moves. As glorious as it might be, its not exactly a "wholesome experience" for the blue team. This is what would start happening if we legalized lethal taunts.
TLDR: No one expects the Pootis Inquisition!

 

[RatherStrange]

This is an oxymoron.

The point I was trying to make is that a Red shouldn't be punished for performing a lethal taunt if it is not endangering anyone.

EDIT: In response to the first reply, the only class they'd really have to fear about is Heavy, which is still something that can be evaded or prevented easily (through normal methods without restricting it), it doesn't necessarily warrant its ban every round.

I'm sorry, but I can't not comment on this.
The heavy's Showdown kill taunt is one of the most underrated rebel tactics in the game. I personally have taken down entire teams of guards with it, and thats just me, with the taunt being auto KoS. Now picture an entire team of red mittens heavies, 20 strong at least, all finger gunning anything that moves. As glorious as it might be, its not exactly a "wholesome experience" for the blue team. This is what would start happening if we legalized lethal taunts.
TLDR: No one expects the Pootis Inquisition!

I don't doubt your skills, and I'll admit I am biased as I used to be a regular on a Jailbreak server that allowed lethal taunts, something that was never an issue. It'd kill a few people here and there but the Blus there would often be good enough to evade them or be smart enough to ban them. I can see what you are getting at but really any rule change will just be a new thing that the Blus are going to have to learn to deal with (which I understand is likely also a factor).

EDIT: I would like to note, however, that if this would create an influx of Heavies trying to taunt kill then if anything it'd only make it easier to evade taunt kills and the option to outright ban it is still there, dissuading Reds from trying to pull just that.

Both of your arguments are valid, but I still would like to push for unwarranted KOS'ing against Lethal Taunts that posed no threat, less a newer player die for performing a taunt or get baited/screwed by a partner taunt.

 

[Cammy]

This response will have sarcasm as I've just woke up.

I am very clearly one-sided on this matter. I do not think the suggestion is a good idea. I do not play Jailbreak and haven't for a long time, but I still have a good sense of what's right and wrong for the gamemode (Jim's laughing at that one).

I've already said that it doesn't matter where the taunt is aimed. All it takes is one stray guard to walk into the taunt's 'firing line' and suddenly you have a rebel that you're going to have to deal with before you move on with the round. Did you know that a lot of guards like to wander around uselessly, and love to hover around the REDs at short-med range? Perfect for a good ol' Pootis POWin'.
You've rarely heard a Warden say that Lethal Taunts are KoS? I can't imagine why.

The Wardens that give the 'Lethal taunts are KoS' line are usually informed that it's automatically implied by either a regular player, a Mod, or an Admin. It's a learning experience for this new Warden, and it may prompt them to go check out the rules that they've clearly not read so that they can play BLU effectively without making mistakes, or at least only minor ones..

...Doesn't Bumblebeam have a giant TAUNTING IS KOS sign written on it, and taunting in Meatgrinder literal suicide. The Warden either makes everyone AFK Freeze and turns on collisions, or the player is already dead to their own teammates.

Paragraph 3: See final sentence of my original post, or 2nd sentence of post #4.
Paragraph 4: Personal experience suggests lethal taunts are more than capable of killing any BLU player regardless of the situation if you do it right. Also, see post #6.

Lifting the ruling for lethal taunts and making it only KoS when it actually is a threat to someone is extremely bad. Any lethal taunt could be considered dangerous for the sake of BLUs, and they are already looking for ANY POSSIBLE WAY to reduce the number of REDs and to pad their tfstats. They'll use it as an excuse to kill that harmless heavy that's taunting a wall, I guarantee it.

I'll partially agree with lethal taunting while cells are closed, but there are BLUs that will facecamp the cell doors and die immediately if the Warden's timing is bad or the Prisoner's timing is good.

 

[RatherStrange]

This response will have sarcasm as I've just woke up.

I am very clearly one-sided on this matter. I do not think the suggestion is a good idea. I do not play Jailbreak and haven't for a long time, but I still have a good sense of what's right and wrong for the gamemode (Jim's laughing at that one).

I've already said that it doesn't matter where the taunt is aimed. All it takes is one stray guard to walk into the taunt's 'firing line' and suddenly you have a rebel that you're going to have to deal with before you move on with the round. Did you know that a lot of guards like to wander around uselessly, and love to hover around the REDs at short-med range? Perfect for a good ol' Pootis POWin'.
You've rarely heard a Warden say that Lethal Taunts are KoS? I can't imagine why.

The Wardens that give the 'Lethal taunts are KoS' line are usually informed that it's automatically implied by either a regular player, a Mod, or an Admin. It's a learning experience for this new Warden, and it may prompt them to go check out the rules that they've clearly not read so that they can play BLU effectively without making mistakes, or at least only minor ones..

...Doesn't Bumblebeam have a giant TAUNTING IS KOS sign written on it, and taunting in Meatgrinder literal suicide. The Warden either makes everyone AFK Freeze and turns on collisions, or the player is already dead to their own teammates.

Paragraph 3: See final sentence of my original post, or 2nd sentence of post #4.
Paragraph 4: Personal experience suggests lethal taunts are more than capable of killing any BLU player regardless of the situation if you do it right. Also, see post #6.

Lifting the ruling for lethal taunts and making it only KoS when it actually is a threat to someone is extremely bad. Any lethal taunt could be considered dangerous for the sake of BLUs, and they are already looking for ANY POSSIBLE WAY to reduce the number of REDs and to pad their tfstats. They'll use it as an excuse to kill that harmless heavy that's taunting a wall, I guarantee it.

I'll partially agree with lethal taunting while cells are closed, but there are BLUs that will facecamp the cell doors and die immediately if the Warden's timing is bad or the Prisoner's timing is good.

I definitely get where you're coming from with how guards like to wander, but that would take some pretty damn good prediction from the red's side to land a Showdown on a Guard wandering in a seemingly random direction: remember, it's very precise and only has limited range.

I will agree with your point on how good Lethal Taunts can be, for in the right hands you are completely correct: they can be devastating. However, this is reliant on the skill of the player, the volume of fellow reds, and the awareness of the Blu(/s) targeted. Two of those factors are not in the player's control, and the only factor they do have control of is not consistent, relying on prediction in order for it to work in a high amount of scenarios. The best time to pull taunt kills is often when the red is in an open area, such as Knife Pit, and they are not being ordered to be AFK frozen or the like (though of course they could still rebel and get away with one if they can manage to pull it off unnoticed/without interference).

At the very least, I'm glad we can agree on something, even if only partially. It doesn't even have to be aimed at the door where it could kill a Blu; just if the taunt can physically not pose a threat to a Blu due to being in a confined space (so take the taunting at a wall idea and apply it to any confined area).

I get the feeling that I'm fighting an uphill battle here for complete legalization, so I will at least continue to push for a compromise that's better than lethal taunts being outright KOS.

EDIT: One thing I would like to note in regards to 10k Cold Knight's argument is that I think it's unfair to say that legalizing Lethal Taunts would cause players to play Heavy en masse in order to Showdown the guards to death without said ruling actually being in effect; you can't possibly know what the result would be aside from the obvious.

 

[RatherStrange]

Making a post to just let y'all know that I'm still pushing for something regarding this topic and that it isn't dead yet (for me at least).

 

[10000 Cold Knights]

Ah, right, I almost forgot about this.
We're not legalizing the use of lethal taunts. Having ammo as a red is KoS even if you don't use it, the same goes for taunt kills. Even for weaker taunts, the fact remains that you are choosing to use a one-hit kill ability that most of the time has greater range than your melee. There's little difference between that and grabbing a shotgun.
Declined.