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SignUp Now!I'm against any change to the current system. No one should be forced to agree with whatever fix was suggested. Just because I don't agree with a suggestion or any compromises to it, doesn't mean I have beef with the person in question.What im saying is that ypu appear to have some beef with one of them because you just shoot down any idea of change regardless of any possible fix WHICH WE EVENTUALLY FOUND.
'Points' 2 and 3 are discussed within the document.I say dont change it because soldier is one of the hardest classes since, 1 you can dodge rockets, 2 pyro, 3 sniper
With all due respect, this is extremely unreasonable and is almost impossible. Any decently aware soldier can easily hear decloak from any of the watches and spy's limited health pool and movement makes it extremely hard to pull off.As far as counters go, the Backup still doesn't block backstabs. The amount of times I've stabbed an overconfident Soldier as they try to spawncamp is hilarious.
I do agree with this being arguably one of two really good options to deal with a soldier utilizing this play style except for the fact that even at a range it's more than easy to dodge stickies. Moreover, while you might be dodging his rockets, that doesn't stop them from killing other people. As well as you can play, the root problem is the status effect. I disagree with the idea that counters can do a good enough job to stop the problem, due to the fact that as well as you can play, you cannot expect the same from your team.Demomen with the Quickiebomb launcher also tend to fare well against Backup soldiers, because the distance they favor fighting at allows the Demo to easily dodge Soldiers rockets (even ones with faster projectile speed, like the Liberty Launcher), and the damage output from the Quickiebombs is still significant even factoring in the damage reduction and immunity to crits of the Backup.
Anyone could hide their model behind cover and make it so the shortstop's benefits of quick fire and range are nonexistent. Moreover a liberty launcher user will have no problem killing a scout.Scouts with the Shortstop also fill the same role. Due to the higher mobility of the class, and the mid-range combat the Shortstop favors, they have no problem maneuvering around Soldier's slow projectiles and slapping him down with the quick fire rate and reload on the Shortstop.
My response to this will be biased as I think using something this OP is just not fun for myself or the other team, and greatly prefer other options to outplay that very problem and dominant hit-scan classes, such as utilizing quick rollouts to surprise enemies.On top of that, the "counter with the same weapon" can be fired right back at Backup haters. Just equip the Backup yourself and outplay them.
I feel like it's not right to compare extreme game modes with extreme concepts to the 100% crits server as at its basis, nothing is different from playing stock control points except that you always have crits. Class wars with defense is an extreme situation where it's a game mechanic to all be one class (in this case engineers) and play around each class' benefits (such as planting massive nests at chokes); orange is at its root deathmatch based with no other gimmick outside of the server plugins such as thirdperson or RTD. I just think this comparison is unfair.Unless the weapon in question genuinely breaks the game as a whole, if shouldn't be changed. By the logic of removing the Backup from 100% crits, we should also remove Engineer from playing Defense on Class Wars, because he's unfun to play against, has the fewest counters of any class in the gamemode, and is only beaten with a frankly ludicrous difference in skill, or lucky RTDs. At absolute worst, increasing the damage threshold to activate it like 10k suggested could be a compromise, but I really don't see a reason to compromise on a weapon that already doesn't perform as dominantly as other loadouts on the server.
This is true of Spy in literally every game mode. It might be exacerbated by being 1-hit with crits, but this is something Big Earner spies face in every gamemode. Quite literally a skill diff.With all due respect, this is extremely unreasonable and is almost impossible. Any decently aware soldier can easily hear decloak from any of the watches and spy's limited health pool and movement makes it extremely hard to pull off.
Again, this is true of every single gamemode. Any Scout with the Candy Cane can be 1-shot, just the same as in 100% crits, and this is something that can be overcome.Anyone could hide their model behind cover and make it so the shortstop's benefits of quick fire and range are nonexistent. Moreover a liberty launcher user will have no problem killing a scout.
Biased is the right word. Generally speaking, Spy's best counter-play is map awareness. The original post even sites the best way to counter a Sniper is simply being better. Soldier, using the backup or not, is countered by skilled movement.My response to this will be biased as I think using something this OP is just not fun for myself or the other team, and greatly prefer other options to outplay that very problem and dominant hit-scan classes, such as utilizing quick rollouts to surprise enemies.
Nothing is different from playing stock control points except that the teams are made up of all the same class, which is a more reasonable scenario in the base game. These gamemodes are inherently chaotic due to taking the base game and expounding on mechanics that already exist, whether or not that makes the gameplay balanced. An unfair comparison would be pitting it up against x100 or similar gamemodes, where all balance has completely flown out the window, and the game isn't played in a normal manner at all.I feel like it's not right to compare extreme game modes with extreme concepts to the 100% crits server as at its basis, nothing is different from playing stock control points except that you always have crits.
If this is truly your viewpoint, then we should remove the Enforcer from Spy, and remove Sniper as a whole. One-shot hitscan classes are far more dominant than Backup Soldiers, even if one or more are in the game. For the low-low price of aiming, you're a far better class than Soldier. If the Backup is the only thing making Soldier viable because it makes up for slow projectile speed, lower blast radius of weapons with faster projectile speed (like the Liberty Launcher), and his slow base speed, then if it was not counterplayable I'd be on board. I presented the counterplays, and you called the one I literally see pulled off (and pull off myself) most often "extremely hard to pull off".I strongly believe people should be able to freely play what they want and deal with different situations.
I do see your point with how it's really not that different, but one expects that scenario of possibly being useless against a nest of engies when playing class wars. If I'm playing crits, I expect the enemy to take critical hits and die somewhat fast because every class has that benefit no matter who they're up against. The back up giving oneself crit negation while the enemy simply can't do anything to eliminate them makes it inherently unfun.Nothing is different from playing stock control points except that the teams are made up of all the same class, which is a more reasonable scenario in the base game. These gamemodes are inherently chaotic due to taking the base game and expounding on mechanics that already exist, whether or not that makes the gameplay balanced. An unfair comparison would be pitting it up against x100 or similar gamemodes, where all balance has completely flown out the window, and the game isn't played in a normal manner at all.
If this is truly your viewpoint, then we should remove the Enforcer from Spy, and remove Sniper as a whole. One-shot hitscan classes are far more dominant than Backup Soldiers, even if one or more are in the game. For the low-low price of aiming, you're a far better class than Soldier. If the Backup is the only thing making Soldier viable because it makes up for slow projectile speed, lower blast radius of weapons with faster projectile speed (like the Liberty Launcher), and his slow base speed, then if it was not counterplayable I'd be on board. I presented the counterplays, and you called the one I literally see pulled off (and pull off myself) most often "extremely hard to pull off".
I'm getting tired of seeing a lot of these 'just get good'-esc comments, so I'll address it here.This is true of Spy in literally every game mode. It might be exacerbated by being 1-hit with crits, but this is something Big Earner spies face in every gamemode. Quite literally a skill diff.
Again, this is true of every single gamemode. Any Scout with the Candy Cane can be 1-shot, just the same as in 100% crits, and this is something that can be overcome.
Biased is the right word. Generally speaking, Spy's best counter-play is map awareness. The original post even sites the best way to counter a Sniper is simply being better. Soldier, using the backup or not, is countered by skilled movement.
Nothing is different from playing stock control points except that the teams are made up of all the same class, which is a more reasonable scenario in the base game. These gamemodes are inherently chaotic due to taking the base game and expounding on mechanics that already exist, whether or not that makes the gameplay balanced. An unfair comparison would be pitting it up against x100 or similar gamemodes, where all balance has completely flown out the window, and the game isn't played in a normal manner at all.
Ya'll are mad at players for using a crutch. They always will. Even though it's a crutch, there's still counterplay. My Spy comment is from personal experience, and more often than not I backstab the Soldier, no matter if they're camping the tower, or around the corner of spawn.
If this is truly your viewpoint, then we should remove the Enforcer from Spy, and remove Sniper as a whole. One-shot hitscan classes are far more dominant than Backup Soldiers, even if one or more are in the game. For the low-low price of aiming, you're a far better class than Soldier. If the Backup is the only thing making Soldier viable because it makes up for slow projectile speed, lower blast radius of weapons with faster projectile speed (like the Liberty Launcher), and his slow base speed, then if it was not counterplayable I'd be on board. I presented the counterplays, and you called the one I literally see pulled off (and pull off myself) most often "extremely hard to pull off".
Ah, so we've reached the part of the debate where you start attacking the person instead of the argument. Congratulations.If you want to come to this post and tell anyone in agreeance that they should just 'get good', that's fine. But please know you haven't added anything to your argument and just look immature.
If you can't out-Battalion the enemy Battalion, that's on you.If you aren't able out-snipe the enemy sniper, that's on you.
I should've been more clear: that wasn't directed completely towards you. A few other posts before this specifically mentioned 'getting good', which is what I was more so referring to. I apologize for not making that part clear in my original post. I did, however, see your comment: "Ya'll are mad at players for using a crutch." and took it in the same manner. We aren't mad. We would just like to see a positive change in gameplay.Ah, so we've reached the part of the debate where you start attacking the person instead of the argument. Congratulations.
If you actually read what I had to say, you'd see that the only point where I actually said "get good" was in regards to Spy. However, since you've chosen to go down the route of insulting rather than actually making a good case;
If you can't out-Battalion the enemy Battalion, that's on you.
Sniper is 1-1, Soldier is more so one has a charged battalions and you have nothing. Different arguments.If you can't out-Battalion the enemy Battalion, that's on you.
But its easy to dodge soldiers' projectiles if its afar but if you were a sniper in regular tf2 u are dead if they were close to you any ways so...I'm getting tired of seeing a lot of these 'just get good'-esc comments, so I'll address it here.
I didn't originally make this post to proclaim my salt that I can't seem to win against the Battalion's Backup. If that was my goal, I simply wouldn't have made the suggestion. I made this suggestion because I believe that the Battalion's Backup ruins the flow of the game and the experience of 100% crits. If you want to come to this post and tell anyone in agreeance that they should just 'get good', that's fine. But please know you haven't added anything to your argument and just look immature.
With THAT out of the way...
I made points regarding the Enforce-Spy and Sniper in my middle school grade essay, and I stand by those. Those two classes are not the same compared to the Battalion's Backup Soldier. Sniper counters Sniper, Enforcer-Spy counters... well, another Enforcer-Spy. In the sniper instance- yes, that is a skill issue. If you aren't able out-snipe the enemy sniper, that's on you. But if you can't snipe the Soldier with the BB on the Tower, that's not a skill issue. Damage output during the BB aside, even without the buffs a sniper will only deal 150 dmg to the Soldier, leaving them with 70 HP. This gives the Soldier plenty of time to whip out the Escape Plan and run to the nearest health kit to restore back to full health, and the cycle continues. Enforcer-Spy is the same situation- shoot your shot, doesn't fully kill the Soldier, Soldier heals to full, and back to the beginning.
Finally, I would like to refer back to @10000 Cold Knights and the compromised change they suggested. At the very least, I think increasing the amount of damage needed to pull off a Battalion's Backup push is a great idea. It gives the opposing team a better chance to push forward and would make the gameplay feel like there's more momentum.