Dear players and observers of blackwonder jailbreak,
Yesterday I made a thread about a question I had regarding jailbreak rules (https://blackwonder.tf/threads/jb-question-about-impossible-orders.37311/#post-138075). The thread rudely dismissed with jokes and bizarre accusations of me posing loaded questions, marked resolved (by an admin, not myself) and archived without giving me the possibility to respond.
10k (an admin) said the question is a waste of time unless I provide a concrete demo of what actually happened. I did not think a demo was necessary, since my question is not just about the situation that actually transpired in the demo, but rather a question about the general principles and a few other situations (which admins rudely dismissed as being obvious but haven't actually provided a simple yes/no answer). But since I want the questions answered, I will comply with the request: here's the demo:
The questions are the following:
1. If the warden orders the reds to start a minigame (e.g. obby) without ordering them to make active progress nor ordering them to complete it, does purposefully delaying completing the minigame (as I did in the demo) make the red KOS?
The second is a more general question.
2. Under what circumstances is the warden allowed to give orders that are impossible to complete for some non-rebelling, non-KOS red in the team, and kill them for not following the impossible order?
I anticipate I will receive attacks and criticism suggesting that question 2 doesn't apply to my situation, e.g. because it was possible for me to complete the task in time or because of some other reason. That's why I initially did not want to post the demo. My question is a question of the general principle, not the particular situation in the demo.
Now, I will gather what I understood to be relevant comments pointing towards the answer to these questions in the previous thread that was closed.
10k wrote
Viking wrote
StenRodd echoed a similar sentiment
Bergenco offered an unexpected comment which quite conflicted with my understanding
One more comment, it's possible that bergenco misread what I wrote and thought that I was asking about a situation in which I was disobeying orders by delaying the minigame. Now whether or not I did disobey the orders by delaying the minigame is the point of question 1 and is not the point here. The point of these questions is to address the hypothetical situation where the red who was ordered to do something was not kos before, yet is forced to become kos because the warden gives an impossible order to complete. So, if the thought process goes, a red delays completing a minigame and by that fact breaks the rules and becomes KOS, a warden orders all reds to complete the minigame, and all reds who were not delaying are perfectly able to complete it in time, that's completely valid and allowed. However, that much was already obvious, because KOS players remain KOS, and it's obviously generally fine to give orders that KOS players are not able to complete and non-KOS players are. The question was about making orders to non-KOS, non-rebelling reds that are inherently (meaning to the best player even after repeated tries) impossible to complete for those reds because of speed limitations or some other reason, yet possible to complete for some other reds. If this was the source of the confusion, I apologize and hope this clarified it.
10k accused the questions above of being loaded. I have to admit this accusation seems bizarre to me, as the questions are purely hypothetical (although originating from a real situation that happened during my jailbreak gaming experience) aimed at understanding and clarifying the rules. I would ask 10k to explain what they meant by the accusation. On the website yourlogicalfallacyis.com, which is a popular internet site focused on logical fallacies, a loaded question is defined as
To summarize, I would like to say that this thread was not made to accuse any player or moderator of anything. I do not know whether the warden broke the rules or not when he gave me the order (which is the whole point of this and the previous thread), and I would have preferred not the post the demo to make it clear that I'm not trying to accuse anyone or cause drama, merely to better understand the rules. I only posted the demo because 10k accused me of wasting time if I don't post it, and implied that the thread will be closed/archived.
I implore the reader not to take the demo as being the whole point of the thread. Instead, try to engage with the hypotheticals I provided, so that together we can all gain a better understanding of jailbreak rules without fighting over particular people or situations.
As to my answers, comments to the posts quoted from previous thread, I would appreciate it if you interpreted them generously and did not attempt to search for hidden meanings or looked for a fight. The thread can be a great opportunity for all players of JB to better understand the rules and does not need to devolve into fighting and insults.
Lastly, I ask everyone, especially the people carrying out the moderation on the server to answer the two questions I initially posed, which are the main topic of this thread. A direct response is always appreciated.
Yesterday I made a thread about a question I had regarding jailbreak rules (https://blackwonder.tf/threads/jb-question-about-impossible-orders.37311/#post-138075). The thread rudely dismissed with jokes and bizarre accusations of me posing loaded questions, marked resolved (by an admin, not myself) and archived without giving me the possibility to respond.
10k (an admin) said the question is a waste of time unless I provide a concrete demo of what actually happened. I did not think a demo was necessary, since my question is not just about the situation that actually transpired in the demo, but rather a question about the general principles and a few other situations (which admins rudely dismissed as being obvious but haven't actually provided a simple yes/no answer). But since I want the questions answered, I will comply with the request: here's the demo:
The questions are the following:
1. If the warden orders the reds to start a minigame (e.g. obby) without ordering them to make active progress nor ordering them to complete it, does purposefully delaying completing the minigame (as I did in the demo) make the red KOS?
The second is a more general question.
2. Under what circumstances is the warden allowed to give orders that are impossible to complete for some non-rebelling, non-KOS red in the team, and kill them for not following the impossible order?
I anticipate I will receive attacks and criticism suggesting that question 2 doesn't apply to my situation, e.g. because it was possible for me to complete the task in time or because of some other reason. That's why I initially did not want to post the demo. My question is a question of the general principle, not the particular situation in the demo.
Now, I will gather what I understood to be relevant comments pointing towards the answer to these questions in the previous thread that was closed.
10k wrote
Firstly, just to be clear, I do not deny that I intentionally delayed completing the obby. Their answer suggests they believe that the answer to the first question is yes. That implies that the instruction "make continuous progress" is redundant, which is contrary to my current understanding of how jailbreak works.
Viking wrote
This is in accord with my understanding of the rules. I accept that the warden makes miscalculations sometimes and that should be forgiven. I accept that the warden in the demo I posted also possibly made a miscalculation on the time required to complete it. Then the question boils down to question 1 again: does delaying completing a minigame counts as delaying following orders when the only given order was to start the minigame. This point was not addressed by Viking, although I would appreciate it if they commented on it in this thread.
StenRodd echoed a similar sentiment
Again, this is in accord with my understanding of the rules, and the question remains whether a red purposefully delaying the completion of obby to do other things when all that was ordered was to start obby, is breaking the rules and makes them KOS.
Bergenco offered an unexpected comment which quite conflicted with my understanding
Again, as with StenRodd and Viking, this does not address a central question of whether ordering to start a minigame is the same as ordering to complete it without any delays. It seems to be implying that whenever a minigame is played, and multiple reds complete it (I inferred that the emphasis on multiple was impotnat), while some other reds are slow in it, the warden is allowed to give an impossible order that would necessarily force the other reds to be KOS. So as I understood it, bergenco is answering the question 1 of whether a warden is allowed to knowingly give orders that are impossible to complete and automatically make some reds KOS in the affirrmative, as long as certain conditions are met, which was really unexpected to me. I admit I do not fully understand the reasoning behind it, so I tried asking bergenco a question of whether the following three situations :
Bergenco has so far refused to answer these questions and dismissed them as obvious from what was already said in the discussion. I fully accept that the answers may be obvious to him, however it is important to realize that not everyone else shares the exact same state of minds that you do, and things that may be obvious to you may not be obvious to others. I asked those questions because bergenco's answer did not make it clear under what exact conditions is the warden allowed to give orders that are impossible for some reds to complete. I invite him to try to answer these questions in this thread, since it should be a simple one liner, e.g. 1. Y/N/Depends 2.Y/N/Depends 3.Y/N/Depends.
One more comment, it's possible that bergenco misread what I wrote and thought that I was asking about a situation in which I was disobeying orders by delaying the minigame. Now whether or not I did disobey the orders by delaying the minigame is the point of question 1 and is not the point here. The point of these questions is to address the hypothetical situation where the red who was ordered to do something was not kos before, yet is forced to become kos because the warden gives an impossible order to complete. So, if the thought process goes, a red delays completing a minigame and by that fact breaks the rules and becomes KOS, a warden orders all reds to complete the minigame, and all reds who were not delaying are perfectly able to complete it in time, that's completely valid and allowed. However, that much was already obvious, because KOS players remain KOS, and it's obviously generally fine to give orders that KOS players are not able to complete and non-KOS players are. The question was about making orders to non-KOS, non-rebelling reds that are inherently (meaning to the best player even after repeated tries) impossible to complete for those reds because of speed limitations or some other reason, yet possible to complete for some other reds. If this was the source of the confusion, I apologize and hope this clarified it.
10k accused the questions above of being loaded. I have to admit this accusation seems bizarre to me, as the questions are purely hypothetical (although originating from a real situation that happened during my jailbreak gaming experience) aimed at understanding and clarifying the rules. I would ask 10k to explain what they meant by the accusation. On the website yourlogicalfallacyis.com, which is a popular internet site focused on logical fallacies, a loaded question is defined as
I would ask them to point out which presumption was made in my question, so that I am able to isolate them and make them more clear and productive. It was not my intent to accuse anyone by asking those questions.
To summarize, I would like to say that this thread was not made to accuse any player or moderator of anything. I do not know whether the warden broke the rules or not when he gave me the order (which is the whole point of this and the previous thread), and I would have preferred not the post the demo to make it clear that I'm not trying to accuse anyone or cause drama, merely to better understand the rules. I only posted the demo because 10k accused me of wasting time if I don't post it, and implied that the thread will be closed/archived.
I implore the reader not to take the demo as being the whole point of the thread. Instead, try to engage with the hypotheticals I provided, so that together we can all gain a better understanding of jailbreak rules without fighting over particular people or situations.
As to my answers, comments to the posts quoted from previous thread, I would appreciate it if you interpreted them generously and did not attempt to search for hidden meanings or looked for a fight. The thread can be a great opportunity for all players of JB to better understand the rules and does not need to devolve into fighting and insults.
Lastly, I ask everyone, especially the people carrying out the moderation on the server to answer the two questions I initially posed, which are the main topic of this thread. A direct response is always appreciated.
