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Declined TFS suggestion

I agree with the following suggesitons:


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Buster

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#1
Hello wonderful people!

Right now when you die you lose a set amount of points depending on who killed you. As far as I have noticed this restricts good players who care about their rank and encourages very defensive/secure play styles.

With the current system you depend on the rest of the server, if most of the server has few points compared to you (which they bound to have on popular servers), you're discouraged from playing risky, since even if you kill 4-5 people (2 points each) if at the end you're killed by someone who has a low rank you can possibly lose several times the amount you have gained and you won't be able to consistently kill 4-5 people anyway. You could die to someone who is very good but joins the server for the first time and lose 40 points which to you is 20 normal kills.

I'd like to propose a different approach and see if others agree, find it more reasonable or not and also just start a discussion about the subject. My proposition is that you should never lose points. This would simplify the plugin, everyone could start with 0 points, which would feel a lot more natural. It would provide a feeling of progression to even the worst players. The server wouldn't discourage aggressive play styles any more. Right now, when you could lose 40 points at once, it's immensely hard to get ahead of the rest of the server, the server is holding you back essentially. I believe the way I suggest the whole plugin would be cleaner and simpler, and more fair to good players(not punishing them explicitly), while still providing a good way for others to catch up to the top.

Of course this will also result in some really big point differences on some gamemodes like dodgeball, where @Silorak can just murder everybody anyway and gets the 15 mvp points and 10 roundwin points basically every round + kills. But points on custom gamemodes could be tweaked differently, or it could be ignored entirely since who cares if on dodgeball people have a lot more points in average compared to 2fort, it's not a huge problem, points in theory can go up to 2 147 483 647.

Global stats are already dominated by custom servers like Achievement and Dodgeball. Someone who plays "vanilla" has no chance of being in the top of the global ledger, so my second proposition is to not include some servers in the global ledger, or make a separate section for them, or to make a global ledger for every gamemode, thus connecting the players of different regions together but not mixing them with everybody else.

Thanks for reading the thread. Please share your thoughts and vote on the suggestions.
 
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#2
While I agree with the global ledger/rankings for every gamemode part of the suggestion, I don't think losing no points would be "healthy" for the system.

I do understand that losing 40 points per death can be annoying, especially when it's for a bullshit reason (random crockets, hello there) but, in my personal opinion, TFS should be like gameME or HLstatX. Now, I'm not sure what Noodl/Benedevil had in mind when creating this plugin but again, that's just my personal opinion.

Maybe the numbers could be fine tuned or maybe you could just lose a static amount of points every death, regardless of the position of the player who killed you while still giving that player an increased amount of points? That would still reward the player while not punishing you just for being a high rank.
 

Buster

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#3
I'm not saying that fine tuning is not an option or that it's impossible, but it'd probably take a lot of time to make it not feel unfair, and it would never feel less unfair than if you just wouldn't lose points in the first place, the current system is supposed to be fine tuned already to some degree, Noodl spent a lot of time thinking out how it all should work. If you could explain why you think not losing points would be unhealthy then I might be able to understand what you're saying better. As for a static amount of point loss, it might be a good idea to just lose like 2 points every death, but I don't see too much use for it other than slightly keeping down the average of points, they would still peak on the top nonetheless.
 
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Jim

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#4
Anyone who turtles down to protect their points is doing so of their own fault. If they care so much about their points why bother. I disagree with the suggestion because I think your form encourages people who play more frequently to simply pad a ton of points and never get rebalanced. Losing points is the only way to balance the system in favor of newer players which is how it should be. It should get harder to retain higher ranks and easier to rise up through lower ones.

I’m not saying the current system is perfect but I think it’s a better idea than a pure point reward system.

Also the per server ledger is already a thing. The webpage to display it all simply isn’t set up. There should be a per server, a per game mode and an all inclusive leaderboard that ideally emphasizes people that play many game modes.
 
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#5
Losing no points would completely remove any point (hehe) in actually playing and going for points, at least in my opinion. If nobody lost any points ever, everyone (eventually) would get a high amount of points, irrelevant of player skill and/or playtime.

Again, in my personal opinion, I always thought of stat tracking plugins (gameME, hlstatsX, etc) as a "badge of honor" persay, as in, if you're good, you'll get high rankings because you actually "deserve" them while players that aren't as good don't but if they want to, looking up to high ranked players will just incetivize them to play better (or more, which y'know, ads and bling bling for Benedevil).

If Noodl/Benedevil want to just make it, literally, a point tracking system, then losing no points per death would be fine, but if it's supposed to actually track every stat (headshots, airshots, diff. weapon kills, diff. class kills, etc...) it would make sense to track deaths and therefore your score (points, in this case) would also need to reflect deaths (losing points per death).
 

Buster

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#6
I believe that people who visit the servers often and who care about points should be rewarded with them, people who don't visit the server often and don't care about them don't really have to be so close to the top players do they? And sure it would be arguably harder to catch up but not at all impossible, you could still get a lot of points by killing the players on top.
 

Jim

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#7
I believe that people who visit the server often and who care about points should be rewarded with them, people who don't visit the server often and don't care about them don't really have to be so close to the top players do they?
What of the new players who want to climb the leaderboards? Your solution indicates they can’t unless they devote a stupid amount of playtime within a short period of time, are good and that the other top scorers slow down in point gain.
 

Buster

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#8
@Jim Is it unfair to expect new players that to be number 1 you would have to spend close to the amount of time on the server as the current number 1 player had? I think it's reasonable.

And do you maybe have a solution yourself, an idea on how to make tfs better or do you just disagree with what I have suggested?

EDIT: Also "Anyone who turtles down to protect their points is doing so of their own fault." The whole point of TFS should be to encourage people to care about points.
 
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O C E A N M A N

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#9
As I have an ongoing competition with multiple people on NY JB over points, I find losing points to be a good way for me those that play significantly more than me (@Lord_Balthezar ) to be at around the same point count as myself. Just keep in mind that changing the point system for the purpose on incentivizing an aggressive play style in DM or Dodgeball could have adverse effects on other game modes
 

Buster

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#10
@O C E A N M A N Exactly, he plays a lot more, so I feel like he should have more points than you. How is it fair to him that even though you play significantly less you are still around the top even though you are at the same level of skill (talking about jailbreak but this is present on DM servers as well).

The point system wouldn't necessarily incentivize aggressive play, but instead not discourage it.
 

Jim

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#11
@Jim Is it unfair to expect new players that to be number 1 you would have to spend close to the amount of time on the server as the current number 1 player had? I think it's reasonable.

And do you maybe have a solution yourself, an idea on how to make tfs better or do you just disagree with what I have suggested?
It is unfair because unless that number one person stops playing, the new player never reaches the top unless they overplay or are absurdly better assuming both players are dedicated players with roughly the same playtime.

My solution would ideally be to throw away the 40 points lost after you’re X places behind but tweak the mode so you lose points based on the total points held by players within the server and on player position as a whole. Group players by percentile; as a rough model, every 10% of total players ranked in order represents a tier, you get more points by killin someone of a higher tier.

Tldr

Scale point gain and loss based on all players, not just by giving 40 points and losing 40 ie by being X places in front or behind.
 

O C E A N M A N

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#12
@Buster How would it not incentivize it? If you are rewarded for getting kills and aren’t penalized for making stupid decisions like running into a group of pyros as a demo, why would I bother playing support classes at all. If your main goal is to get points, the best way in this hypothetical situation is to jump into groups of people and spam - if you die, oh well, you don’t lose anything for it and you may get a lucky kill giving points you didn’t necessarily deserve.
 

Buster

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#13
@O C E A N M A N Well firstly, playing support will not get you many points right now either, expect sniper of course. Secondly, if you play like that, you allow those who kill you to get massive amounts points, so it's still not in your intention to just fish for lucky kills as that doesn't penalize you directly, but lets everyone else catch up to you very quickly.
 
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O C E A N M A N

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#14
@Buster As @Jim said in Discord, having the point system as it currently is allows those who are new to kill those at the top and earn points to catch up faster. The current system favours skill over playtime. Let me ask you this. Do you think the worst player in the world who has 500 hours on one server should have more points that a skilled one with 50?
 

Benedevil

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#15
While I get that it might be fustrating to lose points. I don’t really see the point of basically replacing strange weapons with a plugin. If it is so annoying to look at points I’d actually would just have a feature to turn it off. Obviously not the point calculation but just the messages in total.
There is completely no incentive for any people to play for points if it’s a simple kill couter. First of all, not everyone has equal amounts of time to play on servers to gain points. Time shouldn’t be the primary factor of a rank. It should be the skill. And as already mentioned above, wise decision making should be rewarded. Of course you grow aort of dependant towards team mates and other factors, but that’s just how the game is. I mean I think if CSGO had a ranking purely based on time played there would be no reason for most people to persue high ranks. I’ve heard so many times people talking about their rank in World of tanks or LoL and similar games, trying to get real competitive with it and coming up with strategies or ways that they could maybe play bettyer. Yes you are still dependant from lots of other factors but if you truly have skill, you’ll get to the spot that you deserve.
Of course our situation is a bit different since we also host a grand majority of gamemodes that don’t consist of killing people, but a lot of things have been made adjustable by noodl to take care of that.
The point about losing 40 points per death is a very fair point and has been noted.

I still think the best way to handle this is to allow the ability to turn off the points. Though for me myself, if I see those points sink quickly, it makes me want to try even harder sometimes. Depends on the server obviously.
 

Buster

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#16
Alright, it's okay if you want to keep this system and tweak it a little, I understand the reasons people have brought up and I'm sure it will get better over time. However these ranks will never be truly skill based. The people on top will always be on top mainly because they play a lot on the server and/or because they resort to cheesy tactics and not skill. Why? Because a community 2fort server allows people to progress with cheesy tactics the best, there are no goals that you have to complete in order to gain points (like winning, winning is not worth the risk at all), there is no time limit and there is minimal teamwork. If you could become global on csgo by camping in matchmaking then everyone would do that. A community 2fort server allows exactly that, people who want to play capture the flag on the server because they feel competitive are at a disadvantage from the get go. I suggested this change because once I realised that, I just wanted to take the campers advantage away because I feel it's cheap and shouldn't be encouraged and it's frustrating for anyone who wants to play otherwise but still get sufficient amount of points. It didn't really interest me what the point system would become afterwards since it can't represent skill anyway. I didn't want to see camping become the trend (META) and the single best way to effectively gain points on 2Fort and the only way I currently see to avoid that is by removing point loss or giving huge rewards for actually capturing the flag and attacking in general so it becomes a more rewarding alternative. I guess we can work on the latter then slightly with "B o n u s P o i n t s".

Thanks everyone for their input.
 
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