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Declined Remove the "common sense" rule

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The rules should be clear, specific, and to the point. What one may consider common sense another may not. This rule is way too vague and unclear, and to be frank, utterly lazy. There can be so many rules attributed to this you can't possibly expect everybody to know these common sense rules. I don't have much more to say, just wanted to make a quick suggestion about this.

EDIT: The common sense rule should be replaced with the actual rules that would fall under it. Just want to make that clear.
 

Jim

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Sure, once you list every single rule that common sense currently covers so we can add it to the rules.

Until then, no.
 
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Sure, once you list every single rule that common sense currently covers so we can add it to the rules.

Until then, no.
If you don't know what falls under the rule then why is it a thing in the first place? Why do you expect the general playerbase to if you don't?
 

Jim

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If you don't know what falls under the rule then why is it a thing in the first place? Why do you expect the general playerbase to if you don't?
If you give me any scenario, I can tell you whether it falls under common sense or not. You seem to not understand the point of the common sense rule and I'm short on time.

@RainbowRob explaino please with extensive vernacular.
 
D

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If you give me any scenario, I can tell you whether it falls under common sense or not. You seem to not understand the point of the common sense rule and I'm short on time.

@RainbowRob explaino please with extensive vernacular.
I guess anything can be common sense as long as the owner/staff say that it is. Really seems unfair for people who are likely to get punished for something that they are likely not aware of.
 

Steve Harvey Oswald

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You know, back when I played DarkRP on GMOD, a lot of servers had this "common sense" stuff. DarkRP is a far more rule reliant game than Jailbreak, but the issue was that tons of servers would have different rules, and admins would commonly hit newbies with the "duh it's common sense" response. While I haven't really seen this example as much in Jailbreak (because the only Jailbreak servers I ever play are Blackwonder), common sense can be understood in different ways by different people. Maybe this is a bad example, though, since I don't have evidence to personally prove it.

So here's an example from today, just a few hours ago.

https://blackwonder.tf/threads/abusing-fire-command-in-jailbreak-servers.14675/

Here's a user who hasn't broken any rules asking a reasonable question. Can reds be punished for abusing !fire? I've not once seen somebody be punished for abusing fire. So it's already not common enough sense to warrant a thread asking whether it's against the rules or not, but then the first response answers the question wrong. They say no, there is no rule against it. That's two people who weren't aware of this rule. Two people on our forums, one of which is an active poster. Then Jim says, "No, it's against the rules and reds can be punished for it." The response to this is "what rule says that they can't?" Jim's response actually makes sense. It's exploiting, you're using a function within the game not as intended to benefit you. The response from Benedevil, though, is a little bit more concerning. He just says "it's common sense." It's common sense, yet here we are, with two people who didn't know the answer to the question in the first place. Nobody as far as I know has actually been punished for breaking this sort of written rule, yet suddenly it's expected to be common sense.
 
D

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You know, back when I played DarkRP on GMOD, a lot of servers had this "common sense" stuff. DarkRP is a far more rule reliant game than Jailbreak, but the issue was that tons of servers would have different rules, and admins would commonly hit newbies with the "duh it's common sense" response. While I haven't really seen this example as much in Jailbreak (because the only Jailbreak servers I ever play are Blackwonder), common sense can be understood in different ways by different people. Maybe this is a bad example, though, since I don't have evidence to personally prove it.

So here's an example from today, just a few hours ago.

https://blackwonder.tf/threads/abusing-fire-command-in-jailbreak-servers.14675/

Here's a user who hasn't broken any rules asking a reasonable question. Can reds be punished for abusing !fire? I've not once seen somebody be punished for abusing fire. So it's already not common enough sense to warrant a thread asking whether it's against the rules or not, but then the first response answers the question wrong. They say no, there is no rule against it. That's two people who weren't aware of this rule. Two people on our forums, one of which is an active poster. Then Jim says, "No, it's against the rules and reds can be punished for it." The response to this is "what rule says that they can't?" Jim's response actually makes sense. It's exploiting, you're using a function within the game not as intended to benefit you. The response from Benedevil, though, is a little bit more concerning. He just says "it's common sense." It's common sense, yet here we are, with two people who didn't know the answer to the question in the first place. Nobody as far as I know has actually been punished for breaking this sort of written rule, yet suddenly it's expected to be common sense.
EXACTLY! It way too vague and unclear. A rule should be interpreted in one way and one way only. That comment from Beandevil is what drove me to create this thread, common sense is not a rule and it should not be. Rules need to be set in stone, they should be clear, concise, and to the point. I should be able to read the rules and understand, in full of what is expected of me, I should not guess. If anything, staff can easily abuse this rule. Just create a random rule on the spot and claim that it is "common sense". Hell, I doubt the staff even know what falls under common sense.
 
D

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I would think that the common sense rule was usually used in stuff like "Hey I cant say the n word but I can say a variation of the n word with the same intent WITHOUT being punished yay" I've never really seen it used in other ways than stuff like that. I mean most issues in Jailbreak fall under things other than common sense half the time. I both agree and disagree with this overall. Most things should be added to the rules but I still believe common sense should stay there for things that aren't there
 

Kawaii Hikamao

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in my personal opinion there should be no rules falling into the common sense category especially since different servers have different set of rules what blw playerbase believe is common sense might not be true for other players coming from other servers. For the !fire command, I have played on 3 servers that does not include this command: jasper96, pyromaniac and hopjb. So in conclusion abusing of that command should not be common sense. Using the n word should not be common sense and should be specified again some servers allow it and some do not. So all in all, every rules must be specified. After all you have children playing
 

Benedevil

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Hello,
first of all, I have absolutely no respect for people that claim that everything needs to be written in rules for it not to be allowed. No one told me I can't hit or abuse my parents, but I still don't do it. It shows a lack of maturity as many of you are exploring the real world. The world is so incredibly complex, hence why we cannot easily simulate it in a virtual environment, since we cannot give the program all the rules. We don't know ourselves most of the times. We can't write down a rule for every scenario. Oh hey, some BLU is constantly killing themselves to end the round and people find it annoying. Time to write a rule am I right? Oh wait, this guy is discriminating me after having played with me on the servers and is now spamming me everywhere. Time to write a rule about how you can't discriminate after having played with them on the servers right? Oh wait the guy killed me while I was lagging, is that allowed? Time to write a rule about how killing lagging people is fine am I right?
We can't possibly write rules for every single scenario as people will keep digging further to find some kind of "loophole" or something that is not explicitly stated in the rules. We have to rely on our common sense that we have developed over the years to overcome many situations in life.

For this case in particular, there was no audio from the microphone of the recording player, leaving us with a huge gap of information. "Should write a rule set that define what demos are allowed am I right?". It is hard to judge if warden really just issued cell wars or possibly something else.

After all you have children playing
So I need to play the parent of every kid and be responsible for them playing a game that is marked M for MATURE? If you as a parent let your kids play this game, it is the parents responsibility and not mine. Even then, if the game was not rated M it is the responsibility of the game developer.
By the argument you have provided, you'd have to remove your profile picture. After all, there are kids looking at your half naked big boobed figures.

Edit: @Kawaii Hikamao you are helping people promote pornography by following hentai groups. You think that is okay for the little kids?
 
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Benedevil

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Just to elaborate what rule would you even propose for the scenario? Don't abuse !fire command? How is that defined, ah wait it is in the end common sense that tells us what is !fire abuse and what isn't. We can also say: Don't use !fire if the warden is playing normally. "What about a warden with a bad mic?" Got to add that to the rule set. "Warden can't give us commands properly because he's lagging" Got to add that to the rule set. Who in the end will even want to read the rules?
 

RainbowRobb

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EXACTLY! It way too vague and unclear. A rule should be interpreted in one way and one way only. That comment from Beandevil is what drove me to create this thread, common sense is not a rule and it should not be. Rules need to be set in stone, they should be clear, concise, and to the point. I should be able to read the rules and understand, in full of what is expected of me, I should not guess. If anything, staff can easily abuse this rule. Just create a random rule on the spot and claim that it is "common sense". Hell, I doubt the staff even know what falls under common sense.
You have been here a long time and that rule has been here even longer. Have you witnessed and reported this imaginary tragedy?


Are you suggesting we should also maintain an ever-growing list of no-no words?

There is no way to list all the ways a person could break the rules. There is also no way to list all of the ways a person could be discourteous to others.
 

RainbowRobb

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If you give me any scenario, I can tell you whether it falls under common sense or not. You seem to not understand the point of the common sense rule and I'm short on time.

@RainbowRob explaino please with extensive vernacular.

You really think bigger words will help this simpleton?
 

Benedevil

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In addition I would like to point out that regular players historically are more prone to abuse the absence of the common sense rule than staff abusing the presence of it. Also, you may always appeal your punishment if you think it was unfair common sense, which we have yet to see a real case of
 

Steve Harvey Oswald

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first of all, I have absolutely no respect for people that claim that everything needs to be written in rules for it not to be allowed. No one told me I can't hit or abuse my parents, but I still don't do it. It shows a lack of maturity as many of you are exploring the real world.
If you really want to compare real life violence to people not knowing about a rule that is hardly if ever enforced, then okay. No violence is a rule in society that is preached to us quite a bit. Hit another kid on the playground? A teacher gets involved and tells you it's not a good thing. You hear about people going to jail for being violent. As you get older, maybe you even hear about other kids getting kicked out of school for being violent. It's a widely enforced rule to the point where everybody knows about it. Something obscure like "do not abuse !fire" has probably never had anybody actually reported for breaking it, and I honestly kind of doubt anybody has actually been punished for it. I agree with the judgement of it being against the rules, but it wasn't common sense. Two people didn't know about it. Jim's answer made sense, and it easily could have ended there. It is exploiting, explicitly stated in the rules. But then common sense was thrown into the mix. So which rule does it violate exactly? Apparently admins can't even agree on how it's a violation of a rule.

We can't possibly write rules for every single scenario as people will keep digging further to find some kind of "loophole" or something that is not explicitly stated in the rules.
You can easily add a rule such as "Attempting to find loopholes will get you nowhere." It's pretty blunt, and the second somebody says, "this specific action that falls under the umbrella of exploiting but is not mentioned by name" is brought up, you can just point them to the "no loopholes" rule.

We have to rely on our common sense that we have developed over the years to overcome many situations in life.
Common sense, as you have said yourself, is developed over life. If you see a rule broken and a user is punished, you can assume that doing what the person punished did or something very similar to it is against the rules. Here's the thing, though, you see people randomly using !fire all the time. So you can assume that people don't get in trouble for randomly doing !fire. Again, I agree with the ruling, but the reasoning of common sense was not common sense here.

Just to elaborate what rule would you even propose for the scenario? Don't abuse !fire command? How is that defined, ah wait it is in the end common sense that tells us what is !fire abuse and what isn't. We can also say: Don't use !fire if the warden is playing normally. "What about a warden with a bad mic?" Got to add that to the rule set. "Warden can't give us commands properly because he's lagging" Got to add that to the rule set. Who in the end will even want to read the rules?
I liked Jim's answer of "do not exploit." You don't even need to specifically write out each and every scenario, you just need it to fall under the umbrella of one of our bigger rules. People are a lot more likely to accept, "abusing our firing system to get free freedays." as an exploit than, "oh it's just common sense." All the admins have been interpreting this thread as, "write down more rules forever," when in reality you don't really need to do that. If you can just come up for reasons why something is against the rules given our current ruleset, then it's against the rules, and when somebody is banned you can just point to the rule.

Here's an easy example right here.

Oh wait, this guy is discriminating me after having played with me on the servers and is now spamming me everywhere.
rule numero uno.PNG


In the end, I wrote all of this for nothing because it appears everybody has already made up their mind ten minutes ago and then Hank gets shot and I don't play the game enough to care much anymore, but I hope I presented a decent enough argument here for people to consider my side.

And frankly, this thread is the most I've gotten to use the forums in quite some time.
 

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Benedevil

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From the original thread:
Unbenannt.PNG


User states: Rules don't say to not ABUSE therefore it is not punishable. Common sense tells us of course it's punishable. Exploiting rule also applies.

Thanks.

@Festive Steve H Oswald the fact that you decide to ignore what everyone else has said and only decided to bash my comment completely out of context makes your argument irrelevant. If you want to argue with me about what common sense is or not this is not the thread for it.
 
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Hyped

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This is hilariously stupid.
Jailbreak already has multiple rules that people bend and twist which is just not very fun considering the overall toxic and ill mannered climate jailbreak servers usually have.
If you are going to be on blue you should have common sense and should not misinterpret the rules (I can’t talk because I don’t know the rules for shit).
Common sense isn’t “Uncommon” when select individuals disregard it.
 
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You have been here a long time and that rule has been here even longer. Have you witnessed and reported this imaginary tragedy?


Are you suggesting we should also maintain an ever-growing list of no-no words?

There is no way to list all the ways a person could break the rules. There is also no way to list all of the ways a person could be discourteous to others.
It doesn't matter how much I have seen it been taken into account, the fact of the matter is that "common sense" is way too vague of a rule. Not everyone will know what falls under common sense and what doesn't, hell some people don't even have common sense in the first place.
 
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From the original thread:
View attachment 8372

User states: Rules don't say to not ABUSE therefore it is not punishable. Common sense tells us of course it's punishable. Exploiting rule also applies.

Thanks.

@Festive Steve H Oswald the fact that you decide to ignore what everyone else has said and only decided to bash my comment completely out of context makes your argument irrelevant. If you want to argue with me about what common sense is or not this is not the thread for it.
It has not invalidated his argument in any sort of way. Just because he got a tweensy little bit mean doesn't mean his argument means nothing.
 

RainbowRobb

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It doesn't matter how much I have seen it been taken into account, the fact of the matter is that "common sense" is way too vague of a rule. Not everyone will know what falls under common sense and what doesn't, hell some people don't even have common sense in the first place.
No, you have based the rule being unacceptable on the premise that it allow admins to abuse its interpretation. You have tons of hours on the servers, provide and example or concede the point.
 
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