Medic Revive Markers

[Deleted User 4826]

straight up remove them. No one likes taking 2x the effort to kill any class, regardless if they are actually a problem class (classes that annoy / hurt hale significantly)

Like seriously, I don't know anyone who likes playing against medic revive markers on VSH as is right now. There is another solution that isn't so nuclear but I'd honestly prefer the nuclear option because there's no real way to balance anything that straight up revives players and makes hale have to do 2x the effort.

the few people I've asked who insisted they should keep revive markers usually have arguments such as "oh its for gamebalance" or "oh its because no one likes arena mode"

both of which aren't very valid arguments.

1. Revive Markers make hale not very fun to play, since one uber can revive alot of people that you just spent your valueable time and rage killing, going after decently intelligent medics is hard enough as is when they can build uber very quickly but that would be fine if revive markers didn't exist.
2. As for the other one, if you don't like arena mode, why are you playing VSH in the first place?

Either-way I'm sorry if I come off as toxic, but revive markers are just truly awful.

 

[Deleted User 4826]

Some rebuttals that I can think of and will get out of the way;

"Thats cool and all, but they can just change hale's HP and timer to be larger / bigger so its more balanced"

While that would be a nice change, its more of a general problem with VSH as is so I won't comment on it much

"Skill Issue"

This affects all hales of all skill levels, this is not just a 'skill issue' (if it was I probably wouldn't be posting about it)

"It makes hales go after medics more often"

While technically yes, most decent medics will know to stick with there team. They know when to get out of danger, and when to come back in to heal everyone and this situation, revive people.
Good medics also know to overheal eachother to max if possible, theres alot a single medic can already do to make hale's life a living hell, and I'm perfectly contempt with these because hale has possible (if sometimes risky) counters to most of them. Except revive markers. (unless you count standing on top of them to prevent medics from reviving certain people but thats not intended and quite useless unless theres already alot of dead people with no revive markers)

TL;DR: Good medics already have enough options against hale without revive markers, and most medics will make targeting them exclusively challenging.

"It rewards medics for helping there team"

For moving there mouse and pressing one button? I dont find it very rewarding when I barely try personally, atleast with sniper they need to aim there shots even if they are pretty much just paint cans
Medics probably dont care if its rewarding or not, and personally when I play medic I tend not to get much enjoyment out of reviving people.

Anyway, thats all I could think of. Any other rebuttals are welcome

 

[Cammy]

RED team is too bad at staying alive on average to make gameplay without the revive boxes feasible. The players that are genuinely good at both Hale and RED do not make up the majority. While removing the boxes would force REDs to be more conscious of their placement, and of Hale's movements, 70%+ of that playerbase will not improve.

I would suggest nerfing knockback by maybe 20% across the board, minus pyros since they have a direct 'ability' that requires knockback to actually function.

 

[Kiri]

Completely removing revive markers is too drastic of a nerf to reds. Any decent hale would win all of the time. Good hales already do extremely well even with medics. Mainly because they target medics, rather than completely ignore them like most hales.

Removing the initial 30% ubercharge & slightly nerfing how much ubercharge is gained while healing would be a good nerf. This is ontop of the 20% reduction in knockback as Cammy mentioned.




Being able to spam-click to revive players near instantly is a bigger problem in my opinion.

 

[Deleted User 4826]

RED team is too bad at staying alive on average to make gameplay without the revive boxes feasible. The players that are genuinely good at both Hale and RED do not make up the majority. While removing the boxes would force REDs to be more conscious of their placement, and of Hale's movements, 70%+ of that playerbase will not improve.

I would suggest nerfing knockback by maybe 20% across the board, minus pyros since they have a direct 'ability' that requires knockback to actually function.

While you're first part of the argument has a lot I could comment on, I think I'll just summarize by saying that I, personally atleast dont really care if it would affect a majority of red players, as most would improve and move on like they already usually do.
Atleast to me, with goomba's, spies backstabs, soldiers market gardens, and how you can rack damage up quickly via taking alot of risk, I feel like a mediator could be met for revive boxes that maybe wouldn't be drastic as the change I proposed would be. Though I heavily doubt it would fix the problem in its entireity, but any way to fix the problem would be nice, even if its just a slight nerf.

Though from a server perspective (and my limited understanding), removing revive boxes would likely draw less interest to the server as a whole, since it is one of the few noticeable changes imo (besides saxtron and the various balance changes) that would keep players interested.

As for the knockback proposal, I feel like this wouldn't really be that much of a change besides maybe sniper and heavy. It would make the whole team shooting at you and sending you 1000 feet in the air and forcing you to fastfall a little harder though, so I guess its a fix?
Sniper's knockback is pretty much infamous at this point so I think it'd be a positive change atleast for sniper. Less knockback does mean more opprotunity for hales to be damaged, so its a hard balancing act.
As for other classes, unsure. Heavy would probably be easier to kill I guess? I mean hes already quite easy to if you goomba him. Unsure though

Completely removing revive markers is too drastic of a nerf to reds. Any decent hale would win all of the time. Good hales already do extremely well even with medics. Mainly because they target medics, rather than completely ignore them like most hales.

Removing the initial 30% ubercharge & slightly nerfing how much ubercharge is gained while healing would be a good nerf. This is ontop of the 20% reduction in knockback as Cammy mentioned.

Being able to spam-click to revive players near instantly is a bigger problem in my opinion.

"Any decent hale would win all of the time" is just wrong. Most decent hales have to contend with enough problems as is and I dont think it'd really make them win all the time, just make them win more than usual. Which imo would be a positive change, since most people refuse to play hale because they are too intimidated by it anyway.

The ubercharge changes would also probably fix the revive boxes issue, I still feel it has to be faster than normal but not as fast as it is right now where you felt like it, you can make yourself incredibly hard to approach and take out if you played around your team.

As far as I know, spam clicking is not any significantly faster than not, unless you're talking about Macros / Scripts, which then I completely understand
Eitherway, that still needs to be fixed regardless of if its only slightly faster or not

 

[Kiri]

Just so all of you know, it takes around 20 seconds to get uber simply by healing others. That's too fast.

Removing the initial 30% ubercharge & slightly nerfing how much ubercharge is gained while healing would be a good nerf. This is ontop of the 20% reduction in knockback as Cammy mentioned.

I would prefer seeing the outcome of the nerf that we mentioned. And if that nerf isn't drastic enough, then maybe another nerf could be implemented.

 

[Chris TCC]

I'll keep this thread open for a little bit longer, but I doubt it can recover from the -6 vote it has right now.

 

[Cammy]

While you're first part of the argument has a lot I could comment on, I think I'll just summarize by saying that I, personally atleast dont really care if it would affect a majority of red players, as most would improve and move on like they already usually do.
Atleast to me, with goomba's, spies backstabs, soldiers market gardens, and how you can rack damage up quickly via taking alot of risk, I feel like a mediator could be met for revive boxes that maybe wouldn't be drastic as the change I proposed would be. Though I heavily doubt it would fix the problem in its entireity, but any way to fix the problem would be nice, even if its just a slight nerf.

Though from a server perspective (and my limited understanding), removing revive boxes would likely draw less interest to the server as a whole, since it is one of the few noticeable changes imo (besides saxtron and the various balance changes) that would keep players interested.

As for the knockback proposal, I feel like this wouldn't really be that much of a change besides maybe sniper and heavy. It would make the whole team shooting at you and sending you 1000 feet in the air and forcing you to fastfall a little harder though, so I guess its a fix?
Sniper's knockback is pretty much infamous at this point so I think it'd be a positive change atleast for sniper. Less knockback does mean more opprotunity for hales to be damaged, so its a hard balancing act.
As for other classes, unsure. Heavy would probably be easier to kill I guess? I mean hes already quite easy to if you goomba him. Unsure though




"Any decent hale would win all of the time" is just wrong. Most decent hales have to contend with enough problems as is and I dont think it'd really make them win all the time, just make them win more than usual. Which imo would be a positive change, since most people refuse to play hale because they are too intimidated by it anyway.

The ubercharge changes would also probably fix the revive boxes issue, I still feel it has to be faster than normal but not as fast as it is right now where you felt like it, you can make yourself incredibly hard to approach and take out if you played around your team.

As far as I know, spam clicking is not any significantly faster than not, unless you're talking about Macros / Scripts, which then I completely understand
Eitherway, that still needs to be fixed regardless of if its only slightly faster or not

This is where your issues lie; in the first paragraph you sum up your entire reason for the thread.
It's what *you* want; it's not for the benefit of the server. The Skyhigh/Reservoir servers are popular for a reason, and the revive boxes are a part of that reason. (I dont know why the maps themselves are popular, both are hot garbage)
BLW doesn't want players to move on from the server as that defeats the goal of it: to be populated and popular.

As for the second part of the first paragraph, most of those damage sources come from a result of knockback or lack of awareness from the Hale. In the fringe cases of the extremely skilled Hale players, they barely take damage during their rounds unless there's an equally competent player that knows their patterns on the RED team. The Hale will typically leave them till last because then its a skilled 1v1 to see who can kill who faster, or if timer runs out before hale can get a slap in.

Your second paragraph addresses the point I make in the my first two sentences.

The third paragraph doesnt make much sense as all classes deal knockback, and less knockback means more opportunity for hale to 1) Take more damage, 2) Reach classes that would be able to knock him off the map (Skyhigh) or into the water (Reservoir), 3) Get in range to rage the RED team without getting sent to the moon

The Hale shouldn't be approaching players on foot in around 80% of cases. He should be using his innate advantages (whatever they may be depending on the Hale) to traverse the map in different ways to avoid getting damaged while still closing the distance to a RED player.

----

Kirito is correct on the assumption that any decent Hale would win if revive boxes were taken away. These decent Hales are used to killing up to 60 players sometimes in a single round, if the Medics are competent. These players are conditioned to focus certain classes (or players if that particular player on X class is a severe threat to them (See Komabob/DexterMorgan/Myself (once rust wears off) on Pyro playing to protect (UK SPECIFICALLY)).

The spam clicking thing you can literally rebind to mousewheel and you'll revive a Heavy without ubercharge in less than a second if done right.

 

[Benedevil]

Just to add another perspective to the discussion. Hales currently win more often than reds. Removing reviving outright would probably throw off those numbers even more.

 

[Chris TCC]

declining this suggestion due to community feedback.

Thanks!