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Read Me Jailbreak Rules Clarifications

10000 Cold Knights

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Howdy everyone. I would've put this is questions but then it won't get the Read Me tag, so I put it here instead. Anyway, here goes:
So I've been hearing a lot of complaints recently about how people being punished for things that aren't directly in "the written rules," particularly when it comes to Jailbreak. While it would be ideal for the rules page to account for every eventuality, to get anywhere close to that would easily double the length of what is already the longest subpage we have. There are also those who are against potentially adding rules that are already explained by other rules, or common sense.
While this undoubtedly won't satisfy everyone, this is my best attempt at a compromise.
So here's how this will work: this thread will be left open for anyone to ask me questions relevant to the JB rules themselves (no shitposting plz), and I will try to answer them as officially as I can. I'll start with an example that's long-overdue:

What are the rules for the VSH Last Request?
For the most part, the rules are the same as the normal VSH rules: Versus Saxton Hale Rules | BlackWonder.TF | Forum
There are some elaborations to make, however. Engineers are forbidden from placing buildings in any minigames that require precise movement to complete. Engineers also exempt from the no camping rule, as are players who are assisting said engies.

A couple of things to keep in mind, however:
Rule 1 still applies: if a staff member tells you something contrary to what is posted here, go with what the other staff member is telling you. The rules are always subject to change, and I will try to update this as needed if something is proven to be inaccurate.
I'm not omniscient. Some situations will vary from case to case and I will be unable to provide a concrete answer for them. If you have examples of such cases recorded, I encourage submitting a player report for staff to examine.

@Cammy best I could do. I'll likely take this down after a while if no one responds to it, I'll have at least made the attempt.
 

Jack the Ripper

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Hey there 10k. As you’re a jailbreak guru, I’d like to clarify a few things that I run into frequently when playing.

1: If a blue is on top of obby, and the warden has said continuous progress, can a red stop in order to jump and hit the baiter? (End of obby on mlcastle, for example.)

2; When a warden says “jump for LR,” and one of the prisoners does not jump, would it be freekill to instantly kill them, considering they may be asking for a repeat on the order?

3: Reds cannot camp in minigames that require precise movement, but what about a game like that water maze in jb_wetworks? It doesn’t require precise movement, and the starting area is open, so if an engineer camped there, there would be no challenge for the hale to kill them.

4: I seen to recall there being a rule that blues on warday cannot camp in areas on the other side of teleports, yet I see it done frequently and have even seen an admin do it. Was this changed? If so, what are your reasonings?

5: Does the contracker count as an AFK taunt? If, for example, the warden was playing fall game, and told reds they had to AFK freeze, but could freelook and afk taunt, would using the contracker be legal?

6: When the warden says “Go to medic”, medic becomes a red area until the warden moves the reds somewhere else. If the warden says “go to the yellow line”, presumably the yellow line becomes a red area. Would it then follow that any guard on the yellow line would be baiting, and reds can freely attack them until they leave the yellow line?

7: If, when playing hide and seek, a red is hiding in a rebel spot, and is the last red, would they be ghostable and ineligible for LR?

8: On vsh, when hiding from the hale, you cannot hide in areas with precise movement (presumably because they may cause the hale to instantly die). If the instant death of the hale is an issue, why is telefragging allowed?

9: On vsh, when camping with an engineer it is legal as long as you are assisting the engineer. What are the parameters for “assisting” the engineer? Would a heavy or sniper simply standing on his dispenser be considered assisting? If so, does the engineer leaving his nest momentarily mean all others must leave too until he returns? If not, would the mere presence of a dispenser equate to camping “with” an engineer? How about an engineer with a dispenser, but no sentry? Can engineers camp on their own, even with no dispenser or sentry? If so, why can another class, like Scout, who has a similar weapon setup to engineer, not camp?

10: Finally, if we should listen to admins, but what an admin says directly contradicts a written rule, should the admin or rule be followed? If for example, an admin says “mass freekill is allowed”, are we to listen to them, or the rule?

I would greatly like the answer to these questions, they plague my mind daily and many others. A definitive answer would be excellent and put all of our anxious minds at ease.
 
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10000 Cold Knights

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Well you're not the person I expected to respond to this. Oh well, publicity is publicity I suppose.
If a blue is on top of obby, and the warden has said continuous progress, can a red stop in order to jump and hit the baiter? (End of obby on mlcastle, for example.)
Yes if the blue comes close enough to actually be hit by reds. Sitting by the edge swinging at a guard who's obviously out of range is delaying.
2; When a warden says “jump for LR,” and one of the prisoners does not jump, would it be freekill to instantly kill them, considering they may be asking for a repeat on the order?
I would only allow a repeat for this particular minigame if there was an objective reason for one, for example if the order was completely inaudible or the warden was overtalked. The whole point of the game is to be a test of reaction speed/attentiveness, and if the loser can just do /r every time it defeats the purpose. Same with First Reaction Last Reaction, although it is acceptable to ask for a repeat on the game's rules before it starts.
3: Reds cannot camp in minigames that require precise movement, but what about a game like that water maze in jb_wetworks? It doesn’t require precise movement, and the starting area is open, so if an engineer camped there, there would be no challenge for the hale to kill them.
There are a couple of minigames that work the way you're describing. Regardless, a good rule of thumb to follow is if it would be difficult to complete certain parts of a minigame while under extreme knockback, it's probably not a minigame the engie can use.
4: I seen to recall there being a rule that blues on warday cannot camp in areas on the other side of teleports, yet I see it done frequently and have even seen an admin do it. Was this changed? If so, what are your reasonings?
Hasn't changed as far as I'm aware. Jailbreak | BlackWonder.TF | Forum
5: Does the contracker count as an AFK taunt? If, for example, the warden was playing fall game, and told reds they had to AFK freeze, but could freelook and afk taunt, would using the contracker be legal?
The Contracker is not an AFK taunt, nor is it afk. Warden would have to allow it specifically if ordering reds to AFK freeze. It is also exploiting if used to mask other animations.
6: When the warden says “Go to medic”, medic becomes a red area until the warden moves the reds somewhere else. If the warden says “go to the yellow line”, presumably the yellow line becomes a red area. Would it then follow that any guard on the yellow line would be baiting, and reds can freely attack them until they leave the yellow line?
I see no difference between this and any other location reds convene as far as baiting goes. So long as the reds don't pursue the baiter once he's off the line, it's fine to run over and attack him.
7: If, when playing hide and seek, a red is hiding in a rebel spot, and is the last red, would they be ghostable and ineligible for LR?
I honestly don't know for sure. I'll update this if an answer becomes evident.
8: On vsh, when hiding from the hale, you cannot hide in areas with precise movement (presumably because they may cause the hale to instantly die). If the instant death of the hale is an issue, why is telefragging allowed?
The issue isn't the instant death hazards (otherwise airblasting hale into sweeper or cannon would also be banned). The issue is the difficulty hale has reaching these locations. Aside from the obvious usage of a sentry at the top of something like climb, engineers can also use dispensers and teleporters to get on top of such minigames easily, which is why all buildings are disallowed.
9: On vsh, when camping with an engineer it is legal as long as you are assisting the engineer. What are the parameters for “assisting” the engineer? Would a heavy or sniper simply standing on his dispenser be considered assisting? If so, does the engineer leaving his nest momentarily mean all others must leave too until he returns? If not, would the mere presence of a dispenser equate to camping “with” an engineer? How about an engineer with a dispenser, but no sentry? Can engineers camp on their own, even with no dispenser or sentry? If so, why can another class, like Scout, who has a similar weapon setup to engineer, not camp?
Assisting the engie constitutes either helping him damage hale or ensuring the nest remains intact.
The engineer should be trying to stay close to his buildings, but if he leaves momentarily the other players don't have to pack up and join him.
The rest I'm unsure of, and will likely vary case-by-case.
10: Finally, if we should listen to admins, but what an admin says directly contradicts a written rule, should the admin or rule be followed? If for example, an admin says “mass freekill is allowed”, are we to listen to them, or the rule?
Figured there'd be a poison apple in here somewhere. The staff member takes priority, but can always be reported with evidence if the intent is clearly abuse of power rather than actually clarifying a rule. This should be the exception rather than the norm, however.
 

BananAsriel

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I'd love to take the opportunity to set some rules clear and on stone so i here's my shot

1. Hunt and chasing is only allowed if the warden permits it and doing otherwise is illegal and is grounds to be teambanned. What about instances where there is no warden? like the first 15 seconds of the round in maps like jb_sumermario and jb_mlcastle where there is a breakable that leads to the back of the cells, where guards have to run all the way around to away from the main cell area, are this 15 seconds void of this rule like when the warden is killed and blues are left to roam around if no one else claims warden?

2. I recall there being a mention of how using "jump for LR" as the first game was illegal just like meatgrinder but it was vague, is there a specific limit as of when it becomes acceptable to use it or can the warden line up every red and do this just as the round started?

3. I already know this one myself but given the chance having it written down would be benefitial. In the same manner that scoping in or revving a minigun is considered baiting, using mad milk or jarate on reds is baiting, are reds that get hit by the mad milk / jarate able to actively chase the blu scout / sniper that hit them with it until it wears off?
 

10000 Cold Knights

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1. Hunt and chasing is only allowed if the warden permits it and doing otherwise is illegal and is grounds to be teambanned. What about instances where there is no warden? like the first 15 seconds of the round in maps like jb_sumermario and jb_mlcastle where there is a breakable that leads to the back of the cells, where guards have to run all the way around to away from the main cell area, are this 15 seconds void of this rule like when the warden is killed and blues are left to roam around if no one else claims warden?
You cannot stay with the warden if there is no warden to stay with. Furthermore, the specific breakables you mentioned are considered to be a part of cell area and can be watched without it being considered wandering away from the warden (though you still can't chase anyone that gets away from you until given permission).
2. I recall there being a mention of how using "jump for LR" as the first game was illegal just like meatgrinder but it was vague, is there a specific limit as of when it becomes acceptable to use it or can the warden line up every red and do this just as the round started?
I don't believe there's a specific rule against this yet. In the meantime I would strongly advise actually playing the game instead of ending the round immediately every time.
3. I already know this one myself but given the chance having it written down would be benefitial. In the same manner that scoping in or revving a minigun is considered baiting, using mad milk or jarate on reds is baiting, are reds that get hit by the mad milk / jarate able to actively chase the blu scout / sniper that hit them with it until it wears off?
I mean, it's technically already written down.
You can never chase someone who's baiting outside of the area the warden specifies. A guard who repeatedly baits from range to avoid retaliation can be teambanned.
 

Cammy

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Capture.PNG


Follow or remove. People getting banned for rules in this section is just ridiculous.
 

Deported

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G'day,
While it would be ideal for the rules page to account for every eventuality, to get anywhere close to that would easily double the length of what is already the longest subpage we have.
How can somone be punished for something they were unaware was a rule? Someone could read through the entire rule section and play "correctly" but then get reported for a small discrepency, to be punished without ever knowing what the problem was, that's not fair in the slightest. If the rule is not written in the rule page it shouldn't be enforced. Please stop creating rules, please stop inforcing overcomplicated strings of implications and please stop punishing players over things that are supposed to be a warning.
 
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Jack the Ripper

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G'day,

How can somone be punished for something they were unaware was a rule? Someone could read through the entire rule section and play "correctly" but then get reported for a small discrepency, to be punished without ever knowing what the problem was, that's not fair in the slightest. If the rule is not written in the rule page it shouldn't be enforced. Please stop creating rules, please stop inforcing overcomplicated strings of implications and please stop punishing players over things that are supposed to be a warning.
This brings up an important and very valid point about the rules. When you join a team fortress 2 server, you should be able to access the rules in game. You can, of course, through /rules. Even with in game rules though, and forgive me if I forgot, but does that command send players to the forums? If not, you can’t expect to punish players for things that are on the forums, when many players never even visit here. Additionally, even if that command does send them here, people will not scour the forums for additional pages they missed. If these are not added to the rules, they shouldn’t be enforced unless an admin is online, and would be an unfair punishment, as they are unofficial and completely up to admin discretion.

Say that 10k answers all our questions, but I meet another admin in game and ask them, and they give a different response. Who’s correct? Should I follow admin A, or admin B? What if no admins are around and the issue comes up? If admin A believes something different from admin B, certain players will be punished for different things than others, and this would also change the appeal process.

By allowing admins to essentially define their own rules, and keep them up in the air for debate, players are routinely punished unjustly. The rule system should be standardized, or rewritten to be more clear. If not, a section describing every edge case could be appended to the end as an optional reading, and a place to definitively show what do to in what scenario.
 

jamie

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Even with in game rules though, and forgive me if I forgot, but does that command send players to the forums?
i've heard from new players which i've told to look at /rules tell me it shows an ad and disregard even attempting to look at it further
i don't know this for sure but it's something that has been brought up in that situation
 

BananAsriel

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Say that 10k answers all our questions, but I meet another admin in game and ask them, and they give a different response. Who’s correct? Should I follow admin A, or admin B? What if no admins are around and the issue comes up? If admin A believes something different from admin B, certain players will be punished for different things than others, and this would also change the appeal process.

By allowing admins to essentially define their own rules, and keep them up in the air for debate, players are routinely punished unjustly. The rule system should be standardized, or rewritten to be more clear. If not, a section describing every edge case could be appended to the end as an optional reading, and a place to definitively show what do to in what scenario.
refer to what was said in the opening post of thread:
Rule 1 still applies: if a staff member tells you something contrary to what is posted here, go with what the other staff member is telling you. The rules are always subject to change (...) Some situations will vary from case to case and I will be unable to provide a concrete answer for them. If you have examples of such cases recorded, I encourage submitting a player report for staff to examine.
 

10000 Cold Knights

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Even if everything is written down and set in stone, miscommunication can still happen. That's why we have punishment appeals to begin with, they may normally be processed by the staff member who placed the punishment, but it still gives the situation exposure to other staff that can correct it if it's been objectively mishandled.
If not, a section describing every edge case could be appended to the end as an optional reading, and a place to definitively show what do to in what scenario.
While this would be ideal, it'll never happen if I have to keep explaining why the general rules work the way they do, instead of answering JB-specific questions. I won't be answering any more of the former from now on.
 

Jack the Ripper

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Thanks for the response, I appreciate it. However, some things about these rules still irks me. Say a player comes across one of these edge cases, and due to their nature are not written in the rules. Naturally, how the warden or player should proceed would be up to the admins discretion. However, if an admin is not online, would it be fair to punish someone post-mortem in a report against them for such an edge case? In my personal opinion, I would think the player should either be issued a warning, or the situation would just be ignored due to it’s rare nature and the fact that the player was not aware of any rule breaking at the time, nor were they able to be warned against it. This to me seems like the logical progression of how the enforcement of these edge case “up in the air” rules would go, because if a player isn’t definitively told how to interpret the rules in a given scenario, they shouldn’t be punished for proceeding whichever way they deem to be following said rules at the time.

This may just be my opinion, but given that statement, it strikes me odd why you have a case like this:


The warden, without any admin guidance or warning, proceeded to do a minigame as he saw fit given the rules and how he understood them. Had an admin been on to warn against him, whether or not he would have listened may be up for debate, but it would have been a just punishment had he continued against warning. However, given that this player was not told otherwise about an edge case rule, they continued. After the fact, they were punished for their actions.


While appealing for a rule, in my opinion the course of action would have been: to notify the individual about the admin interpretation of the rule (which, I would like to point out was decided after the report had been made) and that they should avoid situations like that in the future. However, this person remained teambanned, implying that they were simply flat out wrong about the rule, and that such a rule is clear enough to warrant keeping the punishment. Yet, it seems to me to fall under an edge case.

I would love to pick your brain and get a better understanding of why a situation like this happened; your reasoning, and the decision making process. After all, I’d like for it to be made clear, since that is what the purpose of this thread is, to clarify edge case rules.
 
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Sargentman16

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This brings up an important and very valid point about the rules. When you join a team fortress 2 server, you should be able to access the rules in game. You can, of course, through /rules. Even with in game rules though, and forgive me if I forgot, but does that command send players to the forums? If not, you can’t expect to punish players for things that are on the forums, when many players never even visit here. Additionally, even if that command does send them here, people will not scour the forums for additional pages they missed. If these are not added to the rules, they shouldn’t be enforced unless an admin is online, and would be an unfair punishment, as they are unofficial and completely up to admin discretion.

Say that 10k answers all our questions, but I meet another admin in game and ask them, and they give a different response. Who’s correct? Should I follow admin A, or admin B? What if no admins are around and the issue comes up? If admin A believes something different from admin B, certain players will be punished for different things than others, and this would also change the appeal process.

By allowing admins to essentially define their own rules, and keep them up in the air for debate, players are routinely punished unjustly. The rule system should be standardized, or rewritten to be more clear. If not, a section describing every edge case could be appended to the end as an optional reading, and a place to definitively show what do to in what scenario.
This is a problem considering you dont get compensated for being falsely punished. (Compensation isn't a necessity but would be nice)
 

Steve Harvey Oswald

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This is a problem considering you dont get compensated for being falsely punished. (Compensation isn't a necessity but would be nice)
I have a feeling compensating wrongly punished plays is a bad idea. You know how insurance fraud exists? I imagine a lot of players becoming lawyers and trying to get themselves banned for something that isn't explicitly written then claiming they were falsely banned and saying they need compensation. Most cases would fail because we (usually) aren't dense, but its encouraging this type of behavior. Especially if a couple players actually do end up getting away with it.
 

Sargentman16

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I have a feeling compensating wrongly punished plays is a bad idea. You know how insurance fraud exists? I imagine a lot of players becoming lawyers and trying to get themselves banned for something that isn't explicitly written then claiming they were falsely banned and saying they need compensation. Most cases would fail because we (usually) aren't dense, but its encouraging this type of behavior. Especially if a couple players actually do end up getting away with it.
True
 

jamie

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Is teamkilling such as what dusk did, excused in this situation? Stopping warden from doing further illegal minigames.
 

Jack the Ripper

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@10000 Cold Knights Hey 10k, hope you’re doing good. After a week of inactivity, I hope you’ve had enough time to think about my question thoroughly, which is what I assume you were doing by taking this much time to answer. Anyways, I’d like to make sure that everyone can get a clear answer, since it is an applicable scenario to many players.
 

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