Completed [Jailbreak] Ban FRLR/Jump for LR

[Pienamai]

FRLR is just an unfun game. which I feel often gets overused by unoriginal wardens.
Every map has multiple fun minigames to play for LR, which get unused when people decide to play FRLR instead.
I find the minigame really unfun and also unfair to higher ping players.
The only time I can see its use being valid is when the round is about to end with no LR given, but that is rarely the case. And even then, you could do stuff like meatgrinder to settle it quickly.
Overall, this minigame is unfun, sometimes unfair, and underutilizes all the minigames every map already comes with.

 

[honey]

Totally agree, see more pros than cons with this. Forces wardens to be more creative and utilize the maps to their entirety. A lot of people make the argument that it only exists if the round timer is running down and you need to quickly choose someone for LR but there are plenty of other alternatives. I do regularly see wardens try to play FRLR but is often discouraged by the remaining reds due to it not being any sort of fun.

Another issue with this is that we have quite a decent player base that isn't exactly from the US and whoever has the lowest ping definitely comes into favor when playing these so called "minigames"

Would definitely like to see a rule in place for these.

 

[Peter]

Yes, cringe order.

 

[Meowsler]

It's used a lot even when there's more than 2 reds remaining and it's usually a way for blues to end a round fast when they feel uncreative and just don't feel like putting up with anything anymore. Easily in favor of seeing this removed

 

[10000 Cold Knights]

In an ideal world, yes, you could probably get rid of frlr and not have any problems.
This is not an ideal world. Blues are dumb, and LR's/minigames exist that can drain a rounds time considerably. Making meatgrinder the only legal decider minigame is guaranteed to cause problems.
Vetoed.

 

[Benedevil]

Not quite sure why this was deleted, but I‘d like to turn the discussion. I believe FRLR is an alright alternative to end some round if you have little time and just need someone to win.
We can of course make it more consistent via a plugin that perhaps flashes the FRLR text to everyone.
Do we have rules regarding this game atm?

We might want to think about how we can make this game work, before outright banning it

 

[crikey]

We can of course make it more consistent via a plugin that perhaps flashes the FRLR text to everyone.

Even if it flashes the text, it will still be very ping dependant on how fast the person does the action to react to. However, I still like the idea of having the text flash infront of the person so people know exactly when to press it, making it more fair.

Do we have rules regarding this game atm?

no

 

[gusic]

Lag compensation makes it entirely possible to turn both games into a game of favouritism since what one player sees will never match what the warden sees. This can allow a warden to lie and effectively kill whoever they want since it is not possible to determine with 100% certainty if they were truly lying or not, and in the case that they were telling the truth, video recordings from the warden and a separate player can still lead to different conclusions.

One very important thought. Many times I've seen a warden stand still for 5 to 10 seconds before telling prisoners to jump for last request, and immediately, someone would jump and win before the warden even finished saying the order. Even if it is blatant, evidence of favouritism in this case will always be circumstantial since any proof of interaction between the warden and the winner will always remain within private channels.

 

[Dee]

In my opinion if you need to do one of these minigames because there is little time left then you (or the warden(s) before you) have done a bad job. It should not come to the detriment of the player experience because you did a bad job at managing the time, it's not like 10 minutes isn't long enough to get a last non-rebelling red, lots of wardens manage to do it in less than 5 without the use of these "minigames".

We can of course make it more consistent via a plugin that perhaps flashes the FRLR text to everyone.

The problem is that, unless you take player pings into account, it does not address the issue which is that it's unfair for people with high pings. Another thing is that I doubt people would actually bother using this command, I don't see anyone ever use /rps on Jailbreak.

Perhaps we add a rule stating that there has to be a certain amount of time in the round left in order for it to be allowed to play. Perhaps around 2-3 mins?

This doesn't really solve anything. The minigame is still bad and unfair, it's just now it would get played less often.

I also agree with gusic that these minigames can be quite problematic in certain situations. Since these minigames are dependent on the warden's perspective it means these minigame are very subjective. With a minigame like obby or speedrun it's simple; if you die you die. But with minigames like this it's much more vague; what you see on your screen might not be the same as what the warden sees, what they say they see or even what they think they see (this is the same reason why I'm not a big fan of disco). This can lead to mistakes or outright favoritism which is not fun for people who lose.

 

[Benedevil]

I think we can all agree human error/bias is nothing we can or should address by severely limiting the amount of orders.
If we want to argue that FR LR has ping advantage issues, then deathrun should be banned as well in theory. Bhop as well…

Let‘s focus on making FR LR more predictable, maybe via a plugin rather than trying to argue human nature…

 

[Meowsler]

Maybe through warden menu, a button could be pressed under the friendly fire button (lets add confirmations first because I'm sure FF would be enabled accidentally)
But maybe a fr/lr action and it would then announce in-game the following Wardens 1 action (whether it's jumping/crouching/360/etc), and the game would then choose the player that did it first rather than a ping/bias choosing from the warden. Something more precise but it'll be over complicated the way I'm phrasing it. Cause the server at this point needs to decide due to most players frame rate or other factors.

Something along those lines

 

[Benedevil]

Maybe through warden menu, a button could be pressed under the friendly fire button (lets add confirmations first because I'm sure FF would be enabled accidentally)
But maybe a fr/lr action and it would then announce in-game the following Wardens 1 action (whether it's jumping/crouching/360/etc), and the game would then choose the player that did it first rather than a ping/bias choosing from the warden. Something more precise but it'll be over complicated the way I'm phrasing it. Cause the server at this point needs to decide due to most players frame rate or other factors.

Something along those lines

We can make something similar to that. But then accounting for lag compensation/ ping etc is absolutely non-sensical and would open up the largest rabbit hole in JB history

 

[Pienamai]

I don't understand the insistence of keeping this order in game

severely limiting the amount of orders.

It only limits 2 orders, which as it looks by the votes, are already pretty disliked by the community

If we want to argue that FR LR has ping advantage issues, then deathrun should be banned as well in theory. Bhop as well…

Those are not the same types of ping advantage, most minigames with that so called ping advantage, just make the make a bit harder, but can easily be adjusted to. I always play with 170-200 ping and I have never felt as if deathrun or bhop were completely unfair to me. Meanwhile for frlr I rarely stand a chance, most of the times I jump first on my screen by a lot, and yet still lose due to ping.

Let‘s focus on making FR LR more predictable, maybe via a plugin rather than trying to argue human nature…

I don't think there can be really a plugin for that that'll be ping friendly. And honestly, the server currently constantly breaks, which I assume is due to the huge amount of plugins it already has. And I think it's a lot more important to find a fix for those issues rather than make a new plugin just for a minigame people already dislike and want gone.

In conclusion, FRLR is honestly an uneeded game, which favors lower ping players and can also easily cause favoritism. It is mainly used by unoriginal wardens with 5 minutes left on the clock and not as a round ender. The community seems to agree this game sucks. Another server has already proved this game can be banned without ruining the game flow, and I don't see a reason it'll be an issue here. And making a plugin for it seems like an uneeded waste of time.

 

[Benedevil]

There is a experience aspect here I sense that is missing from the post above. It‘s pretty shallow thinking. I must consider more factors than: „it‘s not fun for me“

 

[Cyveray2]

I absolutely despise FRLR/first to jump gets LR as I have absolutely terrible ping due to bad internet, it absolutely blows playing a good round then having it end with someone living closer to the server or with better service winning by default. Or even worse when you are almost 100 percent positive you jumped first and you get hit with that warden perspective bs. I feel like people be using warden perspective as a means to kill people they don't like its legal favoratism, also people can rig the minigame game through warden and a player communicating as gusic pointed out. On top of that this minigame occasionally devolves into arguments about who jumped first people screaming at each other in the chat.

The only time these games should be allowed in my opinion is when 60 seconds or less remain, only as a way to prevent failed rounds where nobody receives LR. There should be some sort of restriction at the very least, far too often something like 4 minutes remain on the clock with only a few Reds remaining instead of playing a decider minigame such as soccer/dodgeball, trivia/jeopardy or tic tac toe/connect 4 they opt to instead play FRLR due to sheer lazyness. If none of these minigames are on the map or are too far away answering a quick question in chat or rps for LR are far better options but not everyone has rps and answering a question in chat can also be rigged through communication. I think a solution might be having an actually good deciding minigame that can be done on the spot, quickly, with everyone having access to it, with no dependance on ping and no way to cheat it.

The !rps command might be this solution, but not the one we have currently as nobody uses it due to its barebones nature it feels like a extremely lackluster version of the taunt. With the current command Reds can choose anyone on the server so they could accedentally choose the wrong person, someone on the opposite team or just do these things on purpose to not play it. There is no indicator of when it's starting or who is playing from other players perspectives iirc its just like oh there is a trophy icon over your head now guess you won and the other guy lost it feels very lame. Maybe make a warden only version in the warden menu that he can assign to the reds and it will force them to play. Add a countdown in the chat and maybe with animations showing which one they choose sorta like the taunt does with the outcome shown so it's not lame.

The command could be used to decide who gets LR, it could be used multiple times for a best 2/3 sorta thing or which minigame gets chosen to decide LR if they both want to play different things. Also add the warden draw line suggestion so you can make a tic tac toe game wherever you want to decide LR that would be so sick. But I see 1 issue that plagues both of these ideas, what if on rps or during tic tac toe they both keep tieing? Either accidentally or on purpose when they are communicating with eachother this same issue exists in FRLR where they jump at the exact same time or don't jump at all.

Maybe add simple player chooser randomizer in the warden menu to decide LR as a last resort it could also be used to choose who goes next during diner/theater or who's minigame idea gets chosen. I may be rambling on but I would personally really like to some sort of good replacement for FRLR/jump for LR rather than removing it with no better alternatives currently existing, atleast add a restriction for it right now so it's only reserved for a last resort option.

 

[Cammy]

First Reaction/Last Reaction - All Prisoners are made to line up against a wall or line up within a designated area. The Warden will state the minigame the REDs are playing, and must ask if any REDs do not know how to play the minigame. If any REDs state they do not know how to play the minigame, the Warden must explain the minigame and perform a practice round.

The minigame is conducted by the Warden ONLY. The Warden will start saying ‘First reaction, last reaction …” cycling randomly between the two, before saying a final line of “First reaction/Last reaction [Order].

If the final order is ‘First Reaction’ then the FIRST person to perform the final order will die.
If the final order is ‘Last Reaction’ then the LAST person to perform the final order will die.

In the event of a tie between the REDs that performed the action at the same time (and are supposed to die), they must both die.

The Warden may stop the minigame at any time unless they state prior to the game that they’re stopping at X players. If the game ends with one RED left alive and not rebelling, they may be given a Last Request.

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Take this and use it, simplify it, ignore it. I don't care. This was a part of the rules update thread I posted a few years ago.

Closed - Jailbreak Rules Update Suggestion

So as it was discussed the other day on Discord, the Jailbreak rules are a little bit out of date. I was bored this morning so went and made a potential rules update for the Jailbreak Rules page. It's way too long to fit on here, so a google docs link is provided instead...

blackwonder.tf

 

[Peter]

I've never liked these minigames. They're not fun to play whether you win or lose and I would rather play literally anything over them.

Restricting these minigames would be a step in the right direction but I honestly don't think they are needed and the vast majority of rounds end before time becomes an issue.

 

[no username]

FRLR is a game played by wardens more focused on ending the round than playing jailbreak. It should stay as a quick finisher for a round that has 30 seconds left just so someone can get LR. If there's plenty of time left in the round, there should be no reason to play the game. It also falls into the category of verbal warden games that can be easily favoritized. A warden can simply give a warning to a friend on red beforehand in order to greatly increase their chance of getting LR. This flaw is shared with "jump for LR".
I would suggest some rule that makes it so quick round finishing verbal games can't be used unless there is a minute left in the round. Instead, wardens should use minigames to determine LR. It's as simple as saying "first one to finish <a medium skill game> gets LR" and it's an easy replacement, plus feeling more fair/fun to reds since they at least get to compete in something skill based and not latency based.

 

[Cammy]

Easiest fix would be to put a player restriction on it, no?
Much like cell wars, jeopardy, sweeper; add a max alive REDs limit before it can be played.

 

[Meowsler]

Easiest fix would be to put a player restriction on it, no?
Much like cell wars, jeopardy, sweeper; add a max alive REDs limit before it can be played.

I could suggest restricting it to :
- 30 seconds left
- Has to be less than 3 reds

It should be a last resort and needs to be treated as such, thoughts?