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Completed BLW Jailbreak: Reducing naive guards & the effects of overtalking

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Blizz

Notably Dangerous

Avi

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At the start of this month, I made a reply to a post about making it harder for newer players to join the guard team. The OP's idea was to have a quiz before being allowed to join, but I explained how that leads to a multitude of problems. Since that thread has pretty much died off since then, I thought I'd revive my suggestions to reducing the matter. My suggestions were simple:

1. Automatically mute reds for 30 seconds when each round begins
2. Impose a minimum number of Jailbreak alive time before being allowed to join the guard team for the first time


Here's my explanation from the thread (made some tweaks for 3rd person):

Reds muted for 30 seconds:
I don't have any doubts that there's been numerous situations where a warden attempts to give their first order but 3 reds overtalk them making it more difficult to tune in. A simple solution would be for the warden to have the ability to mute all reds, but wardens could easily exploit it nor is it really fun in the long run. Once the first order is established, then it's much easier to establish order with reds in the cells or on a line (at least) instead of having to deal with reds already scattered across the map some with ammo. While they can kill people for overtalking the warden including guards, it does not solve the problem of the reds already being scattered with no direction or sense of what to do besides run. If it's the case where the warden must say "overtalking makes you kos" then that's a paradox.

If the plugin is broken, then it will need to be fixed or at least explain what's causing the bug (of course don't share the full code). Open communication (to an extent) allows for more feedback thus correcting issues more efficiently.

Minimum alive hours before joining guard:
I can see this for reducing 2 problems: alt mfkers and new players taken by surprise.

Let's be real, players, especially younger players, join blw jailbreak servers without any idea that they are any different than that of wonderland or panda community. It's not an instinct that they generally have after joining the game mode for the first time. I certainly didn't get that instantly many years ago. It's like moving to a new country where the laws and systems conflict with where you previously lived. Combined with how guards get crits, it will take time to learn the nuts and bolts of the blw jb servers. And during that time, they should be on red as that player can "only hurt themselves" from their lack of knowledge of the system (quoted from Cappie in that same thread).

That's why I propose a minimum number of alive hours before being allowed to join the guard team. As for the actual number that would be fair, I'm not 100% sure. But my idea for a starter is at least 30 minutes of time being alive before being allowed to join the guard team. The reason for time being alive is that they are actively tuning in rather than just suiciding at the start of each round and watching a 30 minute video essay while the timer expires. Those who are actually committed to playing on guard with a thorough understanding of the blw jb system would invest in the time to at least have some degree of familiarity with it. It can also help reduce mfk alts that were just created solely to join the server to mass freekill on guard. [EDIT: as discussed on this thread, 30 mins is too short. Now there's talk below about 2 hours (120 minutes). It would be about as long as 1-2 map rotations. There should also be a counter that tells the player that the number of minutes left (120 at the start) before being able to join the guard team.]

The issue of mfkers and naive new players joining guard will never be 100% solved. But if they can be reduced and get as close as we can, then I'm all for it. Feedback is important. So if you have feedback for my 2 suggestions, then I'd like to hear it.

Lastly, in that same thread, I mentioned how the outdated conservative response of "read the rules" is heavily flawed not just because of how new players don't have that instinct, but also because the actual page itself fails at a basic step in website design. That full discussion will be for another thread coming out later.
 
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Cowboy

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But my idea for a starter is at least 30 minutes of time being alive before being allowed to join the guard team.

Honestly, I'd like to see 2 - 4 hours.

30 minutes is nowhere near enough time to be comfortable with the rules.


This is a great thread and i think people should take these suggestions very seriously as this could be a breath of fresh air for the BLW Jailbreak servers.
 

BananAsriel

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i've seen this "minimum hours alive" system be implemented for other type of game modes and in jailbreak itself across other games and it does fully work as intented, it forces new players to accomodate and get around the rules for some time before playing on blue and prevents a lot issues that normally would occur if the Warden for the round is a brand new player. From my experience i've seen the best time to set this is something around 2 to 5 hours which forces the new player to play through at least 1 rotation of map,
As for the Reds mute suggestion, whilst overtalking warden is punishable if done so repeatedly, allowing the warden to take control over how red's communicate can tackle this issue directly.
 

Blizz

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Avi

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Honestly, I'd like to see 2 - 4 hours.

30 minutes is nowhere near enough time to be comfortable with the rules.


This is a great thread and i think people should take these suggestions very seriously as this could be a breath of fresh air for the BLW Jailbreak servers.

Thank you. I do agree with the "full map rotation" idea although each map is different and can cause problems. For instance, some maps have banned minigames which is another problem to get into but not here.

As for progress, I've tried reaching out to Bene and Lucas and Noodl (2 developers according to the discord. I've only seen them online under that rank). Noodl replied with:
1592440401381.png

(I'M NOT HOLDING ANYTHING AGAINST HIM! IT'S JUST FOR THE PURPOSE OF EXPLAINING WHAT I'VE TRIED SO FAR)

Bene and Lucas did not respond. I reached out to them about a week ago.
 
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Lox

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This seems like a good idea if you ask me. I'm for it, with the upped time to between 2-4 hours of being alive on red. This won't fix all of those 'uninformed blue' problems, but it should fix at least some.

Don't take my word as a guarantee for it getting implemented, though. I don't make that decision. I'm just expressing my support for it.
 

Blizz

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Avi

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This seems like a good idea if you ask me. I'm for it, with the upped time to between 2-4 hours of being alive on red. This won't fix all of those 'uninformed blue' problems, but it should fix at least some.

That's never going to be fixed. It's just something we have to accept. The best we can do is attempt to reduce the likelihood of it becoming a problem.

Don't take my word as a guarantee for it getting implemented, though. I don't make that decision. I'm just expressing my support for it.

From this quest, I have an understanding of how hard that is ?
 

10000 Cold Knights

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I believe the second suggestion has been proposed before and declined, can't remember when or why though so whatever. The first suggestion is unnecessary, however. Something important might need to be said within those first 30 seconds, and malicious overtalk can always be solved by a crit to the face, followed by a votemute. Could you add an option to the poll so we can show approval for one but not the other?
 

Blizz

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Avi

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I believe the second suggestion has been proposed before and declined, can't remember when or why though so whatever. The first suggestion is unnecessary, however.

Why would it be an issue with the wait time to the point where it wouldn't be tested at least? There has not been an official statement from a developer's perspective anywhere on the site. If you are not 100% certain that it has been declined behind the scenes with an actual reason, then it's really just nonsense no offense. And even if you were 100% sure, how would we know it's actually true? The "take my word" argument is weak

Something important might need to be said within those first 30 seconds, and malicious overtalk can always be solved by a crit to the face, followed by a votemute. Could you add an option to the poll so we can show approval for one but not the other?

Donors issuing a votemute is a LAST RESORT serving as a temporary quick fix. You should NEVER have to rely on someone donating money instead of implementing an automated system. What if a donor is not online? Issuing reports will take too long and also puts more unnecessary load on you and the whole staff team as a whole.

If the red player overtalking is stacked or in the closed cells (at the beginning of the round), then they can still overtalk and be pretty much indestructable, making that whole principle useless. You can't tell them to unstack if you're being overtalked (and they can just ask for repeat, taking more time and attention from the warden). They can't overtalk if they don't have the means to do so. Now, muting reds entirely is not a good idea IMO, but wardens need to be uninterrupted when giving the first order to establish some degree of order at the beginning. 30 seconds is enough time to do so.

If the reds need to warn about something, then saying so the chat from numerous reds should get the warden's attention to a player who understands the system. Red is one of if not the most obvious and vibrant color. If the warden is too new and does not pay attention, then they should have been on red for a bit of time to learn about the systems before being allowed to join the guard team (ex: not knowing you can only do cell wars with no more than 4 guards). They'd only be hurting themselves rather than everyone else.

EDIT: Multiple reds giving a warning at the same time, which does happen a lot, is inaudible from the noise interference produced and cannot be construed by the warden unfamiliar with blw jb's systems. Think of it like a radio where multiple people are speaking at the same time on the same frequency. Info will be garbled and missed. Ex: Tenerife 1977.
 
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10000 Cold Knights

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What if a donor is not online?
He might go a round or two longer, but generally if a red dies to overtalking warden two or three times in a row he gets the hint and shuts up. There may be some variance on this for some of the less intelligent players.
Issuing reports will take too long and also puts more unnecessary load on you and the whole staff team as a whole.
Reports are generally dealt with in a timely manner, thank you. I will also be the one to decide what is or isn't an unnecessary load when I'm doing reports, you can consider arguing that point when you're a staff member and you're the one resolving reports. If someone is constantly being disruptive and overtalking warden, you can and should report them.
If the red player overtalking is stacked or in the closed cells (at the beginning of the round), then they can still overtalk and be pretty much indestructable, making that whole principle useless. You can't tell them to unstack if you're being overtalked (and they can just ask for repeat, taking more time and attention from the warden).
So is the issue at this point the overtalking red or the entire blue team that can't handle a stacked red?
If the reds need to warn about something, then saying so the chat from numerous reds should get the warden's attention to a player who understands the system. Red is one of if not the most obvious and vibrant color.
Text chat is a slower communication medium than text chat. An individual likely wont have time to type a warning out before they get mauled by illegal friendly fire. It will also clog up chat if its the only way that 20 reds can talk.
EDIT: Multiple reds giving a warning at the same time, which does happen a lot, is inaudible from the noise interference produced and cannot be construed by the warden unfamiliar with blw jb's systems.
Only if the warnings given out are different. Not much interference coming from 20 reds all saying not to do something at the same time.
 

theawesomecrispy

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You can't truly stop every mass freekill, but this is a good way to prevent about 90% of them. Example: Some player or hacker/bot joins and has the intention of mass freekilling that round, but is stopped once they realize that can't join blu unless they actually play the game. Mass freekill avoided and knowledge of the rules is at least somewhat developed for someone who may have joined from a different community. Not sure about reds being muted for the first 30 seconds because personally, that's when i'm talking the most about the last round, or the round coming up, or anything really.
 

Jim

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Too many words.

The mute for seconds thing each round is fine.

The force players to play red before blue isn’t going to be added, it works against player count.
 

Blizz

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You can't truly stop every mass freekill, but this is a good way to prevent about 90% of them. Example: Some player or hacker/bot joins and has the intention of mass freekilling that round, but is stopped once they realize that can't join blu unless they actually play the game. Mass freekill avoided and knowledge of the rules is at least somewhat developed for someone who may have joined from a different community.

This is pretty much the theme of the suggestion. It's all about getting as close as possible (to a reasonable extent) to that unreachable line of being 100% prevented.
With these new systems, we can get closer. It also makes it less of a burden for the players affected. They'd have to rely on someone to record, have them figure out how to make reports, obtain SteamID(s), and keep track of a particular tick in a lengthy demo file. Why should they, or any of those affected, have to go through that work for something that could have been avoided 9 times out of 10 to begin with?

_______________________________________________________

Too many words.

That's what highlighting is for ?

it works against player count.

What do you mean by that?
 
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Jim

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I mean people are going to go play on pepega.tf when they cannot fully play the game on our server because they're restricted from the get go.
 
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