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Important JAILBREAK PLAYERS READ THIS PLEASE

will5023

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A few of us admins discuss the rules every so often about jailbreak infact more so than any other ruleset and often hit brick walls with each-other.

Some, like myself think you guys need things specified more plainly rather than implied in the wording of rules (ie we dont actually fully write out dont chase baiters in plain English)

So my question to you jailbreak players is WHAT parts of the rules and WHERE do you find issues. what would you like expanded upon more and what do you think we as admins should look into in order to tweak the rules for you to have a better experience.

https://blackwonder.tf/pages/jailbreak/

PLEASE COMMENT BELOW
 
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Egg

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Last guard on first day freeday? I know first day freeday is meant to be a starting-up kind of thing, but it is a bit boring when 20 or so dead players have to wait like 3 minutes for the round to end because one red that's just sitting there, taunting, won't get up and do anything.
 

Blizz

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Avi

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Oh boy, here we go.

This is just a fundamental problem with the gamemode of Jailbreak. It is the biggest example of Murphy's Law in TF2 so much so that you need a list of rules that could be about as long as the Harry Potter series to be consistent.

Before I continue, one important thing needs to be addressed about making any sort of rules. Do not assume anything. Do not assume that people will instantly understand how Jailbreak works as a gamemode for the first time. It's a myth that it will work perfectly like that. You can't assume that everyone who joins the server will completely understand that you need a microphone to be on the BLU team, that you can't just randomly kill people as a BLU, and you can't go away from the warden. I would be strongly in favor of having a time on server quota before being allowed to join the guard team. I don't know what would be a reasonable amount, but 1 to 2 hours should be sufficient enough for someone to understand how Jailbreak is run. This isn't just time alive, this is the time in total. Anyways, here's the bread and butter of this post:
  • First, see everything that I posted in this. It pretty much sums the initial discussion about the paragraph above and Jailbreak in general.
  • If you didn't click the link above this, here's the tl;dr of what I said: MAKE THE RULES EASILY ACCESSIBLE TO THE PLAYERS WITHOUT HAVING TO GO TO A LINK IN A BROWSER. YOU CAN'T EVEN COPY AND PASTE THE LINK. IT SHOULD BE OPENABLE BY AN HTML MOTD.
  • I still see players confused about "Last Guard Kills All" not being allowed in certain situations, No killing freedays (confused about whether a freeday is KOS at the end of the round. It's hard to tell), stay with warden at all times (Some get confused about the granting permission aspect of it. A bit off topic but...IMO, it's dumb rule that becomes tedious when the warden doesn't respond with something like "yes you may go find rebels". I say get rid of it especially on large maps like Chretien.), and many other confusing rules. This is also why I think days that don't involve being in in a particular location or do a certain action should be prohibited. Lava day won't be as clear to a new player as you'd think.
  • Repeats. Can we have a system where when an alive red types something like !repeat into chat, it mutes everyone except the warden for a few seconds? The warden needs to be able to speak before a repeat can be given. I'm sick and tired of people getting freekilled because everyone keeps talking over the warden so he can't give a repeat. And if you're relying on admins to come in and mute everyone regarding this, you're not helping the problem. EDIT: This literally just happened when I joined the LA server after posting this. Thanks Jake....
  • Stickybombs. Because the Stickybomb Launcher is a weapon that encourages the stickies to be used for traps (Demoman is a defensive class...woah), I think it's best to just simply deactivate the stickybomb launchers from being equipable just like the Thermal Thruster. It's a very forgettable rule.
  • Please specify that Reds can't camp armory too. It is labeled under rules for everyone, but I still see people try to claim that it's only for guards.
  • This is a bit of a nitpick, but please do mic checks only at the start of the rounds. I've been wrongly guardbanned during mic checks at least twice because someone thought that it was a good idea to do a mic check while the warden was attempting to give orders. It's way too confusing and it just unnecessarily creates chaos. I typically client side mute most reds so I can listen to the warden. If I am frozen in place, it's highly likely that an admin is on and wishes to interact with those who are frozen (mainly the guards).
  • It's time to settle this once and for all (found in the Red Team section under "No Blue control rooms or armory"):
    "Going into off limit places such as blue control rooms and alternate cell exits or trying to reach these places by hitting breakable objects makes you a rebel. Freedays may enter blue rooms so long as they do not grief or block blues and if warden gives permission."
    Hitting a breakable, NOT JUST BREAKING IT, makes you KOS. Case closed on this one.

More stuff might come later. Stay tuned.
 
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Jim

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I still see players confused about "Last Guard Kills All" not being allowed in certain situations, No killing freedays (confused about whether a freeday is KOS at the end of the round. It's hard to tell)
Freekilling is not allowed. Freedays may not be killed unless they rebel. Last guard kills all applies when warden is locked and there is one guard remaining which also removes the freeday given to any reds at the start of the round.
stay with warden at all times (Some get confused about the granting permission aspect of it. A bit off topic but...IMO, it's dumb rule that becomes tedious when the warden doesn't respond with something like "yes you may go find rebels".
Maybe you should just stay with the warden the way a blue is obliged to instead? The point of the rule is so rounds aren't ruined because of useless guards wandering the map, griefing games, etc. It also stops people from wandering under the guise of saying that they're hunting rebels.
I say get rid of it especially on large maps like Chretien.), and many other confusing rules.
Wouldn't making map specific rules that aren't necessary make things even more confusing :/ ??? Also what are these "many other confusing rules"?
This is also why I think days that don't involve being in in a particular location or do a certain action should be prohibited. Lava day won't be as clear to a new player as you'd think.
Warden is obliged to explain all non-explanatory games to reds, this includes lava day.
Repeats. Can we have a system where when an alive red types something like !repeat into chat, it mutes everyone except the warden for a few seconds? The warden needs to be able to speak before a repeat can be given.
Suggested numerous times and declined because it's just a flood of spam to the server for no good reason as warden is obliged to repeat his orders if asked anyway.
I'm sick and tired of people getting freekilled because everyone keeps talking over the warden so he can't give a repeat.
Make reports against these people.
And if you're relying on admins to come in and mute everyone regarding this, you're not helping the problem.
So what's the point of admin if preventing the problem doesn't help it :/ ???
Stickybombs. Because the Stickybomb Launcher is a weapon that encourages the stickies to be used for traps (Demoman is a defensive class...woah), I think it's best to just simply deactivate the stickybomb launchers from being equipable just like the Thermal Thruster. It's a very forgettable rule.
Stickies are a fair weapon. It is illegal to sticky trap, make reports against people that do.
Please specify that Reds can't camp armory too. It is labeled under rules for everyone, but I still see people try to claim that it's only for guards.
That's not a problem with the rules if it's already under the everyone section.
This is a bit of a nitpick, but please do mic checks only at the start of the rounds. I've been wrongly guardbanned during mic checks at least twice because someone thought that it was a good idea to do a mic check while the warden was attempting to give orders. It's way too confusing and it just unnecessarily creates chaos. I typically client side mute most reds so I can listen to the warden. If I am frozen in place, it's highly likely that an admin is on and wishes to interact with those who are frozen (mainly the guards).
Admins can mic check whenever they want at their own discretion. You muting them and/or not hearing especially after being frozen is your own fault.
It's time to settle this once and for all (found in the Red Team section under "No Blue control rooms or armory"):
"Going into off limit places such as blue control rooms and alternate cell exits or trying to reach these places by hitting breakable objects makes you a rebel. Freedays may enter blue rooms so long as they do not grief or block blues and if warden gives permission."
Hitting a breakable, NOT JUST BREAKING IT, makes you KOS. Case closed on this one.
Hitting and breaking are both present continuous verbs that mean the same thing on jailbreak when talking about any object on the maps that can be broken because they are actions in progress.
 

Jim

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Last guard on first day freeday? I know first day freeday is meant to be a starting-up kind of thing, but it is a bit boring when 20 or so dead players have to wait like 3 minutes for the round to end because one red that's just sitting there, taunting, won't get up and do anything.
Unfair as warden is already locked to begin with, making it unfair for remaining guards if the first warden dies. The point of first day freeday is so people can load in; If I recall you were warned and/or punished about intentionally wasting first day freeday as a blue to start a new round. Reds can do as they please on their freeday. On top of that, first day freeday already has a severely reduced round timer of 5 minutes. Denying that freeday because you're bored or something isn't really fair to the people who have slower computers that still want to play.
 

Sakuya

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There is one simple rule we have that if everyone follows we won't have anymore problems.
It states "Don't be a smartass."
 
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Jim

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There is one simple rule we had that if everyone follows we won't have anymore problems.
It stated "Don't be a smartass."
Lots of kiddies cried though. It's not like how it was during Ben Jr times where admins could punish people for being stupid in general. Many people believe that if it's not written down in big bold letters, it's unfair to be used as a standard; excluding basic conduct of being a person on the internet and more specifically, using the servers they are allowed to. But that's just me getting a little more cynical too early.
 

will5023

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Unfair as warden is already locked to begin with, making it unfair for remaining guards if the first warden dies. The point of first day freeday is so people can load in; If I recall you were warned and/or punished about intentionally wasting first day freeday as a blue to start a new round. Reds can do as they please on their freeday. On top of that, first day freeday already has a severely reduced round timer of 5 minutes. Denying that freeday because you're bored or something isn't really fair to the people who have slower computers that still want to play.
a blue can do what they wish on first day free day jim if they want to suicide and get the game going that’s not a warnable or punishable offence it’s not their fault people have slow computers. Either way jim you said you didn’t care about the people’s comments here so please move along.
 
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Noodl

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MAKE THE RULES EASILY ACCESSIBLE TO THE PLAYERS WITHOUT HAVING TO GO TO A LINK IN A BROWSER. YOU CAN'T EVEN COPY AND PASTE THE LINK. IT SHOULD BE OPENABLE BY AN HTML MOTD.

/Jbrules does (or did this) it may have been removed, and I expect the link to be invalid or old now. Pester Ben.
 

Blizz

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Avi

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/Jbrules does (or did this) it may have been removed, and I expect the link to be invalid or old now. Pester Ben.

This helps. Thanks. Can you also have the site open up in MOTD by using the /rules menu that appears when you first join the server? Not everyone will know that /jbrules exists.

Admins can mic check whenever they want at their own discretion. You muting them and/or not hearing especially after being frozen is your own fault.

It's still counterintuitive to do a mic check while the warden is trying to give commands. You have two people, who need to speak, talking at the same time. The warden can't just remain quiet or else the prisoners won't be controllable. It's entirely avoidable. The client-side mute thing I can understand, but admins should have a better sense of when it's appropriate to check for mics without adding to any chaos. I wouldn't complain about this if this hadn't happened on numerous occasions.

Freekilling is not allowed. Freedays may not be killed unless they rebel. Last guard kills all applies when warden is locked and there is one guard remaining which also removes the freeday given to any reds at the start of the round.

Why even have freedays be removed automatically when an lr has been selected? They die within 30 seconds anyways. Why not have them keep their freeday status until they actually rebel? It looks silly even of paper. If it's a problem with the Jailbreak plugin, then correct it.

As for the last guard kills all part, have the message only show up when the warden is locked so it notifies the last guard and remaining prisoners that the last guard can now start killing reds. If you're worried about people using /uw to activate it, then don't allow them to be able to /uw when 1 guard is alive. While we're on the subject about /uw, I should ask this. If 99.99% of the time you can't use it, why even have it? It just enables abuse.

Suggested numerous times and declined because it's just a flood of spam to the server for no good reason as warden is obliged to repeat his orders if asked anyway.

What are you talking about with flood of spam? Have a timer for how long the system can be used again so that it can't be spammed. The warden can't repeat their orders if they're being talked over which happens more frequently than you think. Sending reports wouldn't do jack shit if the same events keep happening over and over again. If a system isn't implemented to prevent the human factor, then the scenario will continue to repeat itself. You can't stop people from talking over the warden whenever able because of psychology. Hell, that's why the reds are muted for the first 30 seconds at the start of the round.

So what's the point of admin if preventing the problem doesn't help it :/ ???

I saved this one for the end because it's probably the most important response.

I understand that all of this overhaul would require work, but that's the whole point of preventing an idiotproof system. It won't be infallible, but it would be more sufficient if there were automated protections in place. This should have been said at the very begin of my first post. Sending admins to enforce the rules should be the LAST line of defense. Admins exist to act as an alternative if automated systems break down or are bypassed. Automated systems include guardbans, random warden selector, reds muted for 30 seconds at the start of the round, LR menu, etc. With Jailbreak, no effective automated system seems to be in effect with the subjects I've mentioned earlier. Meanwhile, rules like no unwardening can easily be made less frequent if /uw never existed. Admins should look into why and how these instances happened in the first place and find efficient ways to make them happen less often. Instead, you merely double down on all suggestions while other admins like will are scratching their heads asking "how do we fix this" and making threads like this.
 
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D

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I have been playing Jailbreak for a very long time so it is safe to say that it is a very complex gamemode and not everyone can be right about it when it comes to certain situations. I can list these specific situations so it can be further discussed until a decision has been made and clarified in the rules so people won't have to constantly fight about it. The things I noticed (and I'll be expanding this list as it comes to mind in time):

1. The Minigame "Stage Chaos" on the mlcastle map has 4 button choices to choose, ending the game when a button has been pressed for the 3rd round and leaving one left. The thing is about this is that players and even some admins say that you are allowed to hit all but one button at the same time, even though there are multiple rounds for a reason and I see it as exploiting a minigame, killing many reds with a possibility of all dying easily at one time. More rounds equals less choices to choose so there can be at least a chance of a red choosing an empty area, so at least someone will get LR.

2. This one isn't really much of a problem but more of a suggestion. Some wardens have been playing "Simon Says" at the beginning of rounds with many reds, I think Simon Says should only be played after a minigame (kinda like meatgrinder/arena) and perhaps with a certain amount of reds such as 5 or 6 left. It will be much easier to pay attention to the reds who would be KOS and not much of a hassle with 15+ reds alive playing Simon Says.

3. This one may already have an answer for it but should probably still be mentioned in the rules to be safe. During "First Reaction, Last Reaction" some wardens like to say more than just "Last Reaction Jump" or "First Reaction Crouch". Sometimes they add stuff like "Last Reaction Do a 360" which people who do a 360 really fast only appears in their camera but not their models. When I say this, I mean that their model just turns back the opposite direction instead of doing a whole 360. This can get players who do this killed. I think only certain actions should be allowed during First Reaction, Last Reaction as some contradict with other rules like lethal taunting. For example, if lethal taunting is not allowed and the warden says "last reaction taunt" then they will most likely kill the red who lethal taunted because they don't have a taunt, regardless if they are first or not to taunt. So either lethal taunting can only be allowed during this minigame or there should be order restrictions when it comes to playing First Reaction, Last Reaction.
 
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Jim

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I have been playing Jailbreak for a very long time so it is safe to say that it is a very complex gamemode and not everyone can be right about it when it comes to certain situations. I can list these specific situations so it can be further discussed until a decision has been made and clarified in the rules so people won't have to constantly fight about it. The things I noticed (and I'll be expanding this list as it comes to mind in time):
1. The Minigame "Stage Chaos" on the mlcastle map has 4 button choices to choose, ending the game when a button has been pressed for the 3rd round and leaving one left. The thing is about this is that players and even some admins say that you are allowed to hit all but one button at the same time, even though there are multiple rounds for a reason and I see it as exploiting a minigame, killing many reds with a possibility of all dying easily at one time. More rounds equals less choices to choose so there can be at least a chance of a red choosing an empty area, so at least someone will get LR.
The chances of dying do not change. The way the probability works is that its either a 1/4 chance to live by hitting all 3 or a (3/4*2/3*1/2) chance to live which equals 6/24 which equals a 1/4 chance to live. There is no difference statistically if warden hits all the buttons. It has however been discussed a few times by admins with no definitive response. I personally see no harm in it as you are still playing the game properly, just accelerating the time table and it has no unfairly negative results for the reds playing the game.
 
D

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The chances of dying do not change. The way the probability works is that its either a 1/4 chance to live by hitting all 3 or a (3/4*2/3*1/2) chance to live which equals 6/24 which equals a 1/4 chance to live. There is no difference statistically if warden hits all the buttons. It has however been discussed a few times by admins with no definitive response. I personally see no harm in it as you are still playing the game properly, just accelerating the time table and it has no unfairly negative results for the reds playing the game.
But wouldn't it still count as exploiting the minigame as that's how it wasn't meant to be played?
 
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Jim

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But wouldn't it still count as exploiting the minigame as that's how it wasn't meant to be played?
Technically yes but there is no negative side effect as there is in 99% of exploiting scenarios. It also gives variety to what wardens are doing which is especially lacking these days... Most ml_castle rotations never even play stage chaos once anyway.
 

Jim

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It's still counterintuitive to do a mic check while the warden is trying to give commands. You have two people, who need to speak, talking at the same time. The warden can't just remain quiet or else the prisoners won't be controllable. It's entirely avoidable. The client-side mute thing I can understand, but admins should have a better sense of when it's appropriate to check for mics without adding to any chaos. I wouldn't complain about this if this hadn't happened on numerous occasions.
Personally when I conduct mid-round mic checks, I do it in such a way as to impact the game as little as possible (eg doing it while reds are playing fall game or something where warden isn't giving orders). It would vary by admin but I disagree with giving admins such a restriction.
Why even have freedays be removed automatically when an lr has been selected? They die within 30 seconds anyways. Why not have them keep their freeday status until they actually rebel? It looks silly even of paper. If it's a problem with the Jailbreak plugin, then correct it.
It makes no difference at the end of the round when it's going to end anyway, and the loss of sparkles discourage those freedays from harassing the blues (like a spy dancing around them) by baiting and possibly denying the given lr to the last red of that round. You can look at the apparent spaghetti that is the JB plugin if you want; Noodl and Bene typically have more pressing coding matters to be busy with.
As for the last guard kills all part, have the message only show up when the warden is locked so it notifies the last guard and remaining prisoners that the last guard can now start killing reds. If you're worried about people using /uw to activate it, then don't allow them to be able to /uw when 1 guard is alive. While we're on the subject about /uw, I should ask this. If 99.99% of the time you can't use it, why even have it? It just enables abuse.
Incorrect. Last guard text appears whenever a red dies and there is a single blue left, this includes the time before warden is locked. /uw has the purpose of allowing blues to pass off warden between each other to avoid the same person being autopicked a dozen times in a row randomly. Although it is true that most uses of the command are incorrect. A viable solution to that without disabling the command should be thought of.
What are you talking about with flood of spam? Have a timer for how long the system can be used again so that it can't be spammed. The warden can't repeat their orders if they're being talked over which happens more frequently than you think. Sending reports wouldn't do jack shit if the same events keep happening over and over again. If a system isn't implemented to prevent the human factor, then the scenario will continue to repeat itself. You can't stop people from talking over the warden whenever able because of psychology. Hell, that's why the reds are muted for the first 30 seconds at the start of the round.
How long would this timer be? It really doesn't matter because it would always be going off. It would be annoying at most, and as I said before, I don't see why the suggestion would be accepted now after it has been declined numerous times. The best you can do is report and buy donor for /votemute.
I understand that all of this overhaul would require work, but that's the whole point of preventing an idiotproof system. It won't be infallible, but it would be more sufficient if there were automated protections in place. This should have been said at the very begin of my first post. Sending admins to enforce the rules should be the LAST line of defense. Admins exist to act as an alternative if automated systems break down or are bypassed. Automated systems include guardbans, random warden selector, reds muted for 30 seconds at the start of the round, LR menu, etc. With Jailbreak, no effective automated system seems to be in effect with the subjects I've mentioned earlier. Meanwhile, rules like no unwardening can easily be made less frequent if /uw never existed. Admins should look into why and how these instances happened in the first place and find efficient ways to make them happen less often. Instead, you merely double down on all suggestions while other admins like will are scratching their heads asking "how do we fix this" and making threads like this.
Completely disagree. First off, admins are regular players who apply for the position because they frequent jailbreak; This helps maximize the amount of time an admin is on. Admins are the first line of defense because they can observe and act accordingly on a situation where automated systems can't (like the old anti freekill system if anyone is old enough to remember that). /uw has uses, report people who abuse it. Also keep in mind, people will always find something to abuse. This is how jailbreak is. It can be minimized which is done as best as it can be. I think threads like this one are silly because anything that is a big enough problem is will come in front of the admins anyway in our secret admin only discord channel. All this thread does in my eyes is give people a place to whine and complain about things they don't like, which is good an all, I just find it an annoying waste of time rather than being in admin chat actually discussing the changes that will occur.
 

Blizz

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Avi

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This is just a question in general about minigame rules in general. Some minigames have printed text about the game. On ml_castle, bumble beam has the text "Taunting is KOS" on the wall. Some servers interpret that as a reminder for the warden to say no taunting while others say taunting is auto-kos. I haven't relied on any automatic rules of bumble beam since I just say it out of habit. But what's the consensus about "Taunting is KOS" like signs?
 

Jim

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This is just a question in general about minigame rules in general. Some minigames have printed text about the game. On ml_castle, bumble beam has the text "Taunting is KOS" on the wall. Some servers interpret that as a reminder for the warden to say no taunting while others say taunting is auto-kos. I haven't relied on any automatic rules of bumble beam since I just say it out of habit. But what's the consensus about "Taunting is KOS" like signs?
All signs are invalid. Warden must order "no taunting" or the likes regardless of what any sign says. This is partially due to how server settings work and how maps were made (like how the collisions buttons on maps don't work on our servers) where sometimes the signs don't really make sense or apply. This however is not to be confused with signs that say stuff like "no cheating" which is already implied via the rules.
 

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