Respect The Forums.


Kimmel has stood up for me when I completed Bhop, climb and other parkour activities, despite others claims that I "cheated", the only thing I cheat on is the my loving girlfriend with The Warden. I am a pro at those activities and can do them so fast you wont see me on them past the first platform which combined with his dedication to The Warden, sacrificing many hours he could have of spent, hanging out with friends, starting a family or literally anything else productive (so honourable) makes him more than worthy of my signature in this very serious matter, its probably worse than global warming and the black plague combined.

Signed: Reyn, "Respecter Of Wardens, User of Sandmans, Respecter Of Wardens again, Pro Climber, Obbyer, and Bhopper" Time

(yes thats the real name my parents gave me at birth, they have great foresight)

I'll just drop my own two cents here.

Kimmel said:

the forums are a great and specific resource for Rules, Reports, a place to talk about game topics as well off topic discourse

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The rules will be kept on the website/forums (whatever is left). Also - talk about game topics? As far as I see, the forums is as good as dead, and there are rarely any posts outside of appeals, reports, and staff applications.

Kimmel said:

Discord is bloated, and a platform that hosts many evil and perverse communities.

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I agree discord is not the most optimal solution, but we have a higher ratio of people that have a discord account compared to a forum account, and having both means people have to flip-flop between platforms. Having everything in a single location is more convenient imo.
What other communities exist on discord doesn't matter - this argument can be flipped too, many bad communities host forums, right?

Kimmel said:

Forcing users on discord, especially the many children who are active in the BLW community, invites them to potentially engage in harmful predators and communities

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I doubt that. it's actually the other way around, we're forcing many to create disposable forum accounts to make a single post, before leaving and letting it rot. I'd say many children already have a discord account, so why not make use of that?
Also, predators and other communities will always exist, no matter where. Just because we have a forums doesn't mean that these children are safe, they can always head to another website, or still have a discord account, even if we have a forums.

Kimmel said:

There are a minority of people that are very active on the forums and servers

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I don't really see that minority, as at most we get less than 3 posts that are non-report/appeal/application related per day. (at least what I've seen)

Kimmel said:

don't have a discord and will be cut off from all of these resources.

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This is a valid criticism, and I'll discuss this with the staff to see what alternatives we can come up with. Still, there is a higher percentage of people without a forum account than the other way around. Just because a small minority of the forum users don't have a forum account doesn't mean we can ignore the majority of people that have discord but not a forum account.
If you make the argument that "they can make a forum account", why not make the smaller group make a discord account instead?

Kimmel said:

This is a serious change that I think is unnecessary and harmful to this community that I've come to love over the last year.

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This is indeed a serious change, and we've discussed it as best we can. This will be a slow process so we can iron out any kinks and problems we experience on the way, but as a whole, I'd say this is a net positive change after we're done moving.

I appreciate you giving your feedback, but I believe that the points you brought up aren't enough to change (at least) my perspective on things.
I'd be happy to engage with some discussion if you want to drop some counter-arguments.

Chris TCC said:

I'll just drop my own two cents here.

The rules will be kept on the website/forums (whatever is left). Also - talk about game topics? As far as I see, the forums is as good as dead, and there are rarely any posts outside of appeals, reports, and staff applications.

I agree discord is not the most optimal solution, but we have a higher ratio of people that have a discord account compared to a forum account, and having both means people have to flip-flop between platforms. Having everything in a single location is more convenient imo.
What other communities exist on discord doesn't matter - this argument can be flipped too, many bad communities host forums, right?

I doubt that. it's actually the other way around, we're forcing many to create disposable forum accounts to make a single post, before leaving and letting it rot. I'd say many children already have a discord account, so why not make use of that?
Also, predators and other communities will always exist, no matter where. Just because we have a forums doesn't mean that these children are safe, they can always head to another website, or still have a discord account, even if we have a forums.

I don't really see that minority, as at most we get less than 3 posts that are non-report/appeal/application related per day. (at least what I've seen)

This is a valid criticism, and I'll discuss this with the staff to see what alternatives we can come up with. Still, there is a higher percentage of people without a forum account than the other way around. Just because a small minority of the forum users don't have a forum account doesn't mean we can ignore the majority of people that have discord but not a forum account.
If you make the argument that "they can make a forum account", why not make the smaller group make a discord account instead?

This is indeed a serious change, and we've discussed it as best we can. This will be a slow process so we can iron out any kinks and problems we experience on the way, but as a whole, I'd say this is a net positive change after we're done moving.

I appreciate you giving your feedback, but I believe that the points you brought up aren't enough to change (at least) my perspective on things.
I'd be happy to engage with some discussion if you want to drop some counter-arguments.

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The main issue with discord from my perspective, is that its defiantly not a direct substitute for the forums, these forums have an easy way to see all posts made recently, in discord because effectively everyone's stuff is lumped together, it can get pushed up by chatters and nobody will see it despite the select few online, whereas on a place like here the comments made to one post, are kept of that one post and do not obscure other relevant postings. I am not saying dont eliminate the forums, I am saying discord isnt a great alternative, but also granted I dont know what an alternative would be and I cant imagine its ultra cheap upkeeping the forums considering how often it is plagued with random bugs that come back every other day and server costs.

Reyntime said:

it can get pushed up by chatters and nobody will see it despite the select few online, whereas on a place like here the comments made to one post, are kept of that one post and do not obscure other relevant postings.

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For some of the subforums, we're going to make use of the discord forum feature. This means there are posts, and comments, and ordered by recent activity, just like a normal forums would.

Reyntime said:

I am saying discord isnt a great alternative

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there is no perfect solution for this case - but discord positives outweigh the negatives.

Chris TCC said:

I'll just drop my own two cents here.

The rules will be kept on the website/forums (whatever is left). Also - talk about game topics? As far as I see, the forums is as good as dead, and there are rarely any posts outside of appeals, reports, and staff applications.

I agree discord is not the most optimal solution, but we have a higher ratio of people that have a discord account compared to a forum account, and having both means people have to flip-flop between platforms. Having everything in a single location is more convenient imo.
What other communities exist on discord doesn't matter - this argument can be flipped too, many bad communities host forums, right?

I doubt that. it's actually the other way around, we're forcing many to create disposable forum accounts to make a single post, before leaving and letting it rot. I'd say many children already have a discord account, so why not make use of that?
Also, predators and other communities will always exist, no matter where. Just because we have a forums doesn't mean that these children are safe, they can always head to another website, or still have a discord account, even if we have a forums.

I don't really see that minority, as at most we get less than 3 posts that are non-report/appeal/application related per day. (at least what I've seen)

This is a valid criticism, and I'll discuss this with the staff to see what alternatives we can come up with. Still, there is a higher percentage of people without a forum account than the other way around. Just because a small minority of the forum users don't have a forum account doesn't mean we can ignore the majority of people that have discord but not a forum account.
If you make the argument that "they can make a forum account", why not make the smaller group make a discord account instead?

This is indeed a serious change, and we've discussed it as best we can. This will be a slow process so we can iron out any kinks and problems we experience on the way, but as a whole, I'd say this is a net positive change after we're done moving.

I appreciate you giving your feedback, but I believe that the points you brought up aren't enough to change (at least) my perspective on things.
I'd be happy to engage with some discussion if you want to drop some counter-arguments.

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Discord isn't as organize as the forums, sure you can always make channels and tickets for whatever reason, but it will never be a substitute for the forums. On one hand not that many people have a forums account, on the other people can make as many bot accounts as they wish over on discord. Although I do somewhat agree with you that the forums is dated and isn't used a lot other than for reports, appeals, and staff applications, it should be the duties of the up keepers of the forums to renovate it and keep it overall updated yearly. And on the defense of the forums usage of being a hub for reports, appeals, and staff applications, you really hardly did anything for the socialness of the forums. The Shout box is only really there for quick sentences for people on the go, and other social channels, rather that be to boost interactions with the forums or to let people interact with each other, are pushed down to the bottom. Things like giveaways, introductions, wiki discussions and guides. Basically you broke the forums kneecaps and blame it for not being able to walk... you did it no favors.

StepGrandson said:

isn't as organize as the forums

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In what sense? We're going to have different subforums on the discord, similar in set-up to the current forums.

StepGrandson said:

on the other people can make as many bot accounts as they wish over on discord

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This is an issue for both the forums and discord. Both will have some sort of verification in place. We have blocked countless spam accounts on the current forums, so this aspect won't change.

StepGrandson said:

duties of the up keepers of the forums to renovate it and keep it overall updated yearly

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Keeping the forums updated won't bring activity back to it, however.

StepGrandson said:

you really hardly did anything for the socialness of the forums

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What would you suggest we do then?

StepGrandson said:

and other social channels, rather that be to boost interactions with the forums or to let people interact with each other, are pushed down to the bottom

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So, you're suggesting we remove the shoutbox as a whole and put things like giveaways and discussions at the top of the list?

StepGrandson said:

Basically you broke the forums kneecaps and blame it for not being able to walk... you did it no favors.

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Whether we "broke its kneecaps" or not is up for debate. It's still an objective fact that forums as a whole are on the downturn, and if you check out other communities, their forums are also lacking activity.

Upkeeper of the forums here, sure a few superficial changes could've been made like removing the Minecraft and CSGO subforums and optimizing the forums for social interaction like you said, but none of those things would really solve the problem we're presented with: forums as a whole are dying. You and your friends try and be active here, and I appreciate that, but even that activity is a shadow of what it was a few years ago. Same with basically every other internet forum in existence atm. Nothing lasts forever, the forums have had an amazing run but after almost a decade of usage it's becoming harder and harder to justify their existence. It's simply too slow and inconvenient compared to Discord. It'll probably be some time before the forums shut down completely, and some aspects of it may continue on, but the fact remains that many others are redundant and abandoned. It's time for a change.

chris you are filled with sadness

atleast allow reports and appeals, with an off topic section for threads like jb fails

Kimmel said:

chris you are filled with sadness

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actually, I'm quite happy, just did something cool.

Kimmel said:

atleast allow reports and appeals, with an off topic section for threads like jb fails

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As of now, everything will remain as-is. Can't say what the plans for the future is. Why not have a JB fails thread on the discord once it's implemented? The only difference being it's on discord, it'll still function similarly to the forums...

CheemsGamin
I WANT THE FORUMS TO LIVE!!! (i need to be unguardbanned)

its over...


are demos able to be uploaded to discord?
will an unregistered user still able to report players without a discord account?
what about my epic post score!?
how will admin apps work?
this in my opinion, is ridiculous. Is it the cost of hosting the site? Is there a problem with a bot linking everything that's posted here to the discord. What features do you; at the end of the road, plan to keep on this website besides the rules?

Kimmel said:

are demos able to be uploaded to discord?

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yes, they're regular files.

Kimmel said:

will an unregistered user still able to report players without a discord account?

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that's what we'll have to look into, as said before.

Kimmel said:

what about my epic post score!?

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If people really do care about these pointless numbers, we could work on something similar for the discord server.

Kimmel said:

how will admin apps work?

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they'll use a ticket system as well.

Kimmel said:

What features do you; at the end of the road, plan to keep on this website besides the rules?

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As of now, the rules, the wiki and the donation site, as well as the link to the discord. Basically external things that aren't the forums.

Kimmel said:

this in my opinion, is ridiculous.

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From your perspective it might be, but from ours, it's a beneficial move.

Personally left the discord a couple years back when I was no longer obligated to be in it. It was way too cluttered, I personally couldn't keep up with much of anything. Discord was just functionally worse in every way, and I didn't like using it.

But this is a money thing, isn't it? Discord servers are free, and web domains are not. I can't argue with that logic, especially in the modern era of TF2 where it seems the dev actively tries to get people to not play community servers.

I'm not happy about it, and this will likely be the end of my time with Blackwonder since my usual stomping grounds don't seem to be too active when I'm online and the Discord is far too hectic, but if money's tight money's tight. It's been a good run.



but if it isn't a money thing please don't take them down because discord is way too chaotic to be enjoyable and personally I think it'd be cool to say "yeah I've been here a decade"

Steve Harvey Oswald said:

But this is a money thing, isn't it?

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It is not.
The concern is we're splitting the community in two, and the forums are as good as dead. There is no real need to keep them around. Since the discord is the more active of the two, we've decided that moving the forums to the discord is the more viable alternative.
Currently we're still experimenting, and there are definitely still kinks to iron out, and yeah, sacrifices will have to be made, but overall, I believe it's a net positive.

Steve Harvey Oswald said:

but if it isn't a money thing please don't take them down

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As of now, what we are going to do with the forums is unclear, but at the least I'd imagine posting would be disabled and the forums would serve more an archival purpose.

We're moving slowly as the plan isn't set in stone yet, and I'm happy to take any feedback into consideration. I'm aware losing the forums is a blow to some, but it's obvious the forums is as good as dead, if you exclude reports, appeals and applications. A larger portion of the playerbase has a discord account instead of a forums account as well.

Chris TCC said:

I doubt that. it's actually the other way around, we're forcing many to create disposable forum accounts to make a single post

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You can report users without an account, I would hope that this feature atleast remains.

Chris TCC said:

What other communities exist on discord doesn't matter - this argument can be flipped too, many bad communities host forums, right?

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Well with this forum users only have access to BLW topics. theres no way using blackwonder.com would i be able to access s forum for smoking meth or something. With a discord i could get invited to anyserver that someone wants me to join
Edit: I.E.

Chris TCC said:

"The concern is we're splitting the community in two, and the forums are as good as dead"...."I'd imagine posting would be disabled and the forums would serve more an archival purpose."

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Why not keep the user forums open for Reports, Appeals, Mod Apps, Problems, and Off-Topic. If its not a money thing, why close off options for people? Would it not be possible to simply have a discord bot post when theres a post made on the forums.

Chris TCC said:

if you exclude reports, appeals and applications. A larger portion of the playerbase has a discord account instead of a forums account as well.

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Both mediums are good. Getting rid of bloat is welcome, but shutting down the whole forums is riddiculous.

Kimmel said:

You can report users without an account, I would hope that this feature atleast remains.

Well with this forum users only have access to BLW topics. theres no way using blackwonder.com would i be able to access s forum for smoking meth or something. With a discord i could get invited to anyserver that someone wants me to join
Edit: I.E.
View attachment 36284

Why not keep the user forums open for Reports, Appeals, Mod Apps, Problems, and Off-Topic. If its not a money thing, why close off options for people? Would it not be possible to simply have a discord bot post when theres a post made on the forums.

Both mediums are good. Getting rid of bloat is welcome, but shutting down the whole forums is riddiculous.

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Your second point makes no sense, sorry Kimmel watch this https://www.wikihow.com/Lose-Weight...ds simple, but it takes,a week to get started

If you click that (which you should read btw considering your country of origin) you will be taken to a webpage not on blackwonder exact same as discord granted its not under the blackwonder domain unlike discord still being under the discord domain but we both know its effectively the same thing and thats just a technicality, infact the way you invite people to discord servers is also through links, that take you to a webpage (and then redirects you back to the app if your on the desktop version or mobile version).

I obviously agree it shouldnt shut down though because the forums are less bloated/ easier to navigate but that point was some major copium icl.

Kimmel said:

You can report users without an account, I would hope that this feature atleast remains.

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Asides convience I can't see why people would needs to ability to be able to anonymous report. On the discord reports and appeals already are hidden only for staff and the writer to review.

Kimmel said:

Why not keep the user forums open for Reports, Appeals, Mod Apps

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Reports and appeals have been getting resolved within minutes/hours compared to how they were here. If you want to diversify the idea sure but it will be slower and outdated.

Similiar to how bloated the moderator applications are on the forums right now.

Kimmel said:

Well with this forum users only have access to BLW topics. theres no way using blackwonder.com would i be able to access s forum for smoking meth or something.

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Even if we were to abandon discord as an option, this forum blackwonder.tf should engage with TF2/BLW topics since you know that's what our community is.

Kimmel said:

Problems, and Off-Topic.

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The problems sub-category is a mixture of suggestions and bug reports. Suggestions are more receptive from staff devs to community communicatively than they ever were on the forums.

A bug reporting channel might be a nice addition possibly but bugs can also just be submitted via our discord suggestions where they will be viewed and answered regardless.

Off-topic's sub-category is mostly for shitposting/gamemode inside jokes and staff dev testing which already exists in those individual gamemodes announcement channels/discord sub-communities. Off-topic discussions not related to tf2 aren't on us to encourage there are other communities for every hobby and everyone is free to join or make them.

Kimmel said:

Both mediums are good. Getting rid of bloat is welcome

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In an ideal world yeah definitely, but the forums are slow and they'd only be slower if the active staff had to divide attention maintaining something that already exists elsewhere.

Kimmel said:

Why not keep the user forums open for Reports, Appeals, Mod Apps, Problems, and Off-Topic. If its not a money thing, why close off options for people? Would it not be possible to simply have a discord bot post when theres a post made on the forums.

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I agree with Kimmel. It isn’t fair on us to force people to make a discord account just to report someone ingame or to report a problem with our servers. It will just be easier to not play blackwonder again. The “splitting the community” argument never made sense to me, as there is no “community” aspect to reports, appeals, etc. We don’t gather around as a community all come and discuss together what we should do with some freekiller on jailbreak, or some random person who sprayed a naughty spray on class wars. Sure, implementing more functionality into our discord is all well and good, but we should not shut down the forums and leave the people who either don’t have a discord account, or don’t wish to make one in the dark. Taking away this functionality will be a detriment to the community as a whole.