SZF Balance Suggestions

[EmberflameFoxheart]

Right, let's just get to it. I'm a veteran of SZF and before that ZF with perks, I'm a known regular on the SZF server and I've seen some pretty concerning issues.

- Scout Candy Cane is extremely unbalanced due to it having no downside (other than being melee) while being able to give Scout and his teammates small health kits on every kill with any weapon. My general recommendation is like the Pain Train, where the damage vuln is from everything instead of one damage type that does not apply in SZF. Or make it only on melee kill, either works. (I've been told it might already have the correct damage vuln but its best to make sure.)

- Jockey is just a better Hunter. Since Hunter stun wears off and can be lived through, the Jockey is essentially entirely better in every respect but horizontal mobility. Either give the Hunter its permanent stun while on target back, or make it so the Jockey is 'forced' off a player after some amount of seconds to make it no longer invalidate last man bonuses. There's also the Jockey Space Program where Jockeys can use their infinite stun and movement on survivor to make them literally fly into the sky out of reach of everyone. Also would appreciate making it so Jockeys have a longer CD after successfully killing someone or landing on them like the Hunter. (6 seconds no matter what is brutal.)

- Hunter should have a slightly longer stun to actually kill tougher classes.

- Zombies should be able to use different melee weapons than just what they're given. Sandman on Scout zombie is just puny (I'd suggest the Wrap Assassin but that might be too strong en masse.) Boston Basher would be a suitable alternative too. (Sun on a stick for Pyro Zombie Synergy?) If nothing else it would be appreciated to be able to use default weapons/reskins if given the chance as an alternative. Additionally, Soldier Zombie should be allowed to use the Equalizer if they want damage over mobility. (Soldier Zombie tends to be just a worse Heavy in most respects that I've seen barring niche cases.) Pyro Zombie I hesitantly say should be allowed to use the Homewrecker to make them the de facto building killer in place of afterburn. Third Degree would be nice to attack Medics from behind a stronger class. Heavy Zombie would benefit from being able to use stock reskins if you're into those, or the Fists Of Steel to be a strong zombie tank (but add a much harsher melee penalty so they can be one or two tapped by any class using their melee even with Rage.) Sniper Zombie would be nice to use any of his melees (Kukri for those who don't want the Bushwhacka damage penalty, Shahanshah for damage if you're crazy like that, Tribalman Shiv to be more DoT damage like the Pyro.) Big Maybe give Demoman Zombie the Scotsman Skullcutter for damage but less speed? (Eyelander reskins being usable would be nice too.)

- Stalker should be able to manually uncloak or damage things like props as they're otherwise stuck in certain situations.

- Tank needs some adjustments as almost everyone talks about how Weak the Tank is. I've heard he used to be way stronger but the main thing right now is he needs a damage buff so it doesn't like 3-4 hits to kill a Scout or something with no overheal. A health buff would also be appreciated.

- Morale should not be a hidden mechanic that veterans have to explain, a small bar or something that indicates Morale is active and how strong it is would be excellent QoL.

- Warrior Spirit should probably get a slight healing nerf or a higher damage vulnerability with how easy it is for Heavies to solo entire hordes using it.

- Regarding Zombie weapon changes, if needing to equip it to use in your base loadout isn't effective or is just unfeasible for some people who are just that poor, it could be a menu toggled thing like donator perks so you can swap each time you spawn as you need/want. It'd also be nice if you could enable it for secondaries you can equip as some people don't realize Sniper zombie can use Darwin's, Heavy using Dalokoh bar, etc.

- Festive Secondaries are broken/unusable (Festive Bonk, Sandvich, etc.) ((I think its just for Zombie team...?))


As a final thing regarding the zombie weapon changes, ZF with perks was a lot more fun when Zombies could use more than just one pre-selected melee, and a lot of people would rather have some amount of choice which I agree with. I've tried to tailor this so as to explain why each thing would be good to add/change in hopes that it will make the game mode significantly more fun to play.

Thanks.

 

[EmberflameFoxheart]

Also Scout is not op

 

[Ash Shaw]

I agree with all these suggestions.

Only thing I'd add would be pyros flamethrower should probably be nerfed (At least phlog) but i'm not sure how whether that be damage or ammo consumption.

- Festive Secondaries are broken/unusable (Festive Bonk, Sandvich, etc.) ((I think its just for Zombie team...?))

Broken how?

 

[EmberflameFoxheart]

I agree with all these suggestions.

Only thing I'd add would be pyros flamethrower should probably be nerfed (At least phlog) but i'm not sure how whether that be damage or ammo consumption.


Broken how?

Just unusable. Not just doesn't show in hand, but physically can't be used.

If you want to nerf the Phlog, just remove the uber part of the taunt so you can just massacre him unless he's in a group. Barring that, increase the charge up damage for the Phlog so it takes WAY more damage to be able to activate MMMMPH!

If you want to nerf flamethrowers in general, I'd recommend increased ammo consumption but increase the ammo total so taking ammo boxes will feel better.

Of course all these changes might make the game mode way more zombie favored, but I just want the game mode to be more fun to play as zombie instead of a chore.

 

[EmberflameFoxheart]

With my brain in order, I have some more to say.

- Zombie Soldier could use the Disciplinary Action if zombies being able to swap weapons is invoked, minimal damage but can speed up the others.
- Diamondback is possibly bugged, or if not its not explained well. It either seems to lose all crits over time, or lose all after one shot. Not explained anywhere.
- The Scotsman Skullcutter could use a buff since i've seen less people use it than the persian persuader (and I've only seen one person ever use that.) Could do a speed up on kill so you can go on an axe rampage. Maybe add a bit more damage, hell make it one shot scouts lmao.
- The Boston Basher/Three Rune Blade just shouldn't have the hit yourself on miss. No one uses stock bat anyway so powercreeping it doesn't seem like an issue.
- Equalizer could use a knockback effect like on the Atomizer tbh, or just more damage
- Charge 'n' Targe is basically never used compared to the Tide Turner since the turner actually, turns. And since the resists are mostly useless, could add a small melee resistance to it to make it more viable.
- Chad behavior would be buffing the pomson to penetrate players like it did before pyromania. xd
- If you want Zombie Soldier to be more playable, could buff the three banners to SLOWLY charge up over time since they can be activated if you hit survivors enough. (And live.) Would make Zombie Soldier a nice supportive class if nothing else.


Figured I'd offer some other stat based ideas if the whole giving zombies weapon variety doesn't work out/isn't enough

And also just giving survivors some buffs cause they'll need it lol.

 

[Pomplamoose]

Hey!

I'm another ZF old-timer of ten+ years and friend of Ember, and I just wanted to weigh in on a few things after watching the repo like a hawk for the past year:

1. Festives don't work on Zombies because how they handle their loadout differs from survivors. HandleSurvivorLoadout()keeps the melee intact and then applies custom attributes, while HandleZombieLoadout() destroys all weapons and re-equips the hard-coded, non-festive versions. Survivors can then get their loadout because the PickupWeapon() function checks for that original data before giving the weapon. Effectively Zombies have no way to get festives lmao.
   
   Now, as for giving zombies custom weapons, I will say it right now: that would require a complete rewrite of how zombie loadouts are handled as they are hard-coded. However, how the survivor works with their weapon loadouts and replacement is literally sitting right there so I think it could be kit-bashed into a solution that would allow for both (a) zombies to pick their weapons, and (b) to have custom attributes for those zombie weapons.
   
   
2. Tank being slightly worse than before is an understatement. Prior to the October patch, he had 9000%+ more effective health on average, and while he effectively dealt 200 less damage and was slower, his average lifespan was about 5 minutes, while the current tank with his doubled health depletion can stay up for about a minute and a half. Not to mention that while his rock-thrown is excellent, it's essentially his only viable strategy since you get melted within the old tank's damage resistance—that or probing hit-and-run tactics that largely feel antithetical to playing "the tank."
   
   
3. Morale is not in the game anymore. I've made this claim before, and no one believed me but it's true! Essentially, there is a variable called ZombieDamageScale that increases with every zombie killed at the same time that no survivors are killed. So what we feel as "morale" is the inverse of that value, so during a frenzy, zombies are dealing 170% damage, but survivors are dealing 60%. Inversely, since last survivor imposes 20% on the scale, that means the last guy deals 500% damage! I would honestly really like to bring the old morale bar back, but instead I would call it "Horde Strength" or something so that both teams could intrinsically understand when they are at an advantage or disadvantage.
   
   
4. I don't intrinsically think any weapons are "broken." Instead, I think that other weapons just pale in comparison to the outliers. For instance, I loved the old eviction notice because while it wasn't as strong as the warrior's fist, the added mobility was a godsend. With CatFood as our messiah, we changed the meta before it got nerfed. So rather than nerfing all weapons into oblivion, I think dialing back the outliers while up-lifting the others is your best bet for making them all feel fun.

But that's just my two cents. I'll be thinking about this in the future with Ember and the other veterans to see if we can cook up an actual update for this stagnant gamemode!

, Pomplamoose